Presidential Candidates Debate - Oct 15, 2008

Transcript Text

  • At 00:02:51
    40 seconds

    Another very bad day on Wall Street, as both of you know. Both
    of you proposed new plans this week to address the economic crisis.
    Senator McCain, you proposed a $52 billion plan that includes new tax
    cuts on capital gains, tax breaks for seniors, write-offs for stock
    losses, among other things.
    Senator Obama, you proposed $60 billion in tax cuts for middle-
    income and lower-income people, more tax breaks to create jobs, new
    spending for public works projects to create jobs.
    I will ask both of you: why is your plan better than his?
    Senator McCain, you go first.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:03:31
    2 minutes

    Well, let me -- let me say, Bob, thank you.
    And thanks to Hofstra.
    And by the way, our beloved Nancy Reagan is in the hospital
    tonight, so our thoughts and prayers are going with you.
    It's good to see you again, Senator Obama.
    Americans are hurting right now, and they're angry. They're
    hurting and they're angry.
    They're innocent victims of greed and excess on Wall Street and
    as well as Washington, D.C. And they're angry and they have every
    reason to be angry. And they want this country to go in a new
    direction. And there are elements of my proposal that you just
    outlined, which I won't repeat. But we also have to have a short-term
    fix, in my view, and long-term fixes.
    Let me just talk to you about one of the short-term fixes. The
    catalyst for this housing crisis was the Fannie and Freddie Mae that
    caused the subprime lending situation that now cause the housing
    market in America to collapse.
    I am convinced that until we reverse this continued decline in
    homeownership and put a floor under it, and so that people have not
    only the hope and belief they can stay in their homes and realize the
    American dream, but that value will come up.
    Now, we have allocated $750 billion. Let's take 300 of that
    billion and go in and buy those home-loan mortgages and negotiate with
    those people in their homes, 11 million homes or more, so that they
    can afford to pay the mortgage, stay in their home.
    Now, I know the criticism of this. Well, what about the citizen that
    stayed in their homes, that -- that -- that paid their mortgage
    payments? It doesn't help that person in their home if the -- if the
    next door neighbor's house is abandoned.
    And so we've got to reverse this. We ought to put the homeowners
    first. And I am disappointed that Secretary Paulson and others have
    not made that their first priority.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:05:33
    2 seconds

    All right.
    Senator Obama.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:05:35
    2 minutes

    Well, first of all, I want to thank Hofstra
    University and the people of New York for hosting this tonight. And
    it's wonderful to join Senator McCain again. And thank you, Bob.
    I think everybody understands at this point that we are
    experiencing the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.
    And the financial rescue plan that Senator McCain and I supported is a
    important first step and I pushed for some core principles: making
    sure the taxpayers can get their money back if they're putting money
    up, making sure that CEOs are not enriching themselves through this
    process.
    And I think that it's going to take some time to work itself out.
    But what we haven't yet seen is a rescue package for the middle
    class, because the fundamentals of the economy were weak even before
    this latest crisis. So I've proposed four specific things that I
    think can help.
    Number one, let's focus on jobs. I want to end the tax breaks
    for companies that are shipping jobs overseas and provide a tax credit
    for every company that's creating a job right here in America.
    Number two, let's help families right away by providing them a
    tax cut, a middle-class tax cut for people making less than $200,000.
    And let's allow them to access their IRA accounts without penalty if
    they're experiencing a crisis.
    Now, Senator McCain and I agree with your idea that we've got to
    help homeowners. That's why we included in the financial package a
    proposal to get homeowners in a position where they can renegotiate
    their mortgages. I disagree with Senator McCain in how to do it
    because the way Senator McCain has designed his plan, it could be a
    giveaway to banks if we're buying full-price for mortgages that now
    are worth a lot less, and we don't want to waste taxpayer money.
    And we've got to get the financial package working much quicker than
    it's been working.
    The last point I want to make, though -- we've got some long-term
    challenges in this economy that have to be dealt with. We've got to
    fix our energy policy that's giving our wealth away. We've got to fix
    our health care system, and we've got to invest in our education
    system for every young person to be able to learn.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:07:40

    All right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:07:40
    1 second

    You know --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:07:41
    1 second

    Would you like to ask him a question?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:07:42
    1 minute

    No. I would like to mention that a couple of days
    ago Senator Obama was out in Ohio, and he had an encounter with a guy
    who's a plumber. Name is Joe Wurzelburger (sp). Joe wants to buy the
    business that he's been in for all these years. Worked 10, 12 hours a
    day. And he wanted to buy the business, but he looked at your tax
    plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes. You were
    going to put him in a higher tax bracket, which was going to increase
    his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ
    people, which -- Joe was trying to realize the American dream.
    Now, Senator Obama talks about the very, very rich. Joe, I want
    to tell you, I'll not only help that -- you buy that business that you
    worked your whole life for and be able -- and I'll keep your taxes low
    and I'll provide available and affordable health care for you and your
    employees. And I will not have, I will not stand for, a tax increase
    on small-business income.
    50 percent of small-business income tax is -- taxes are paid by
    small businesses. That's 16 million jobs in America. And what you
    want to do to Joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their
    taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of
    owning their own business.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:09:06
    4 seconds

    Is that what you want to do?
    (Audio break.)

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:09:10
    1 minute

    He's been watching some ads of Senator McCain's.
    Let me tell you what I'm actually going to do.
    I think tax policy is a major difference between Senator McCain
    and myself. And we both want to cut taxes. The difference is, who we
    want to cut taxes for.
    Now, Senator McCain -- the centerpiece of his economic proposal
    is to provide $200 billion in additional tax breaks to some of the
    wealthiest corporations in America.
    ExxonMobil and other oil companies, for example, would get an
    additional $4 billion in tax breaks.
    What I have said is I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of
    working Americans -- 95 percent. If you make more -- if you make less
    than a quarter-million dollars a year, then you will not see your
    income tax go up, your capital gains tax go up, your payroll tax --
    not one dime. And 95 percent of working families -- 95 percent of you
    out there -- will get a tax cut. In fact, independent studies have
    looked at our respective plans and have concluded that I provide three
    times the amount of tax relief to middle-class families than Senator
    McCain does.
    Now, the conversation I had with Joe the plumber, what I
    essentially said to him was, five years ago, when you were in the
    position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then. And what I
    want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the
    firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesn't yet have
    money, I want to give them a tax break now. And that requires us to
    make some important choices.
    Last point I'll make about small businesses -- not only do 98
    percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want
    to give them additional tax breaks because they are the drivers of the
    economy. They produce the most jobs.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:10:55
    53 seconds

    You know what Senator Obama ended up his
    conversation with Joe the plumber? "We need to spread the wealth
    around." In other words, we're going to take Joe's money, give it to
    Senator Obama and let him spread the wealth around.
    I want Joe the
    plumber to spread that wealth around. You told him you -- (audio
    break) -- to spread the wealth around.
    The whole premise behind Senator Obama's plans are class warfare
    -- let's spread the wealth around. I want small businesses -- and by
    the way, small businesses that we're talking that would receive an
    increase in their taxes, right now -- who -- why would you want to
    increase anybody's taxes right now? Why would you want to do that --
    anyone, anyone in America -- when we have such a tough time, when
    these small-business people like Joe the plumber are going to create
    jobs unless you take that money from him and spread the wealth around.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:11:48
    1 second

    Okay, can I --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:11:49
    2 seconds

    I'm not going to -- I'm not going do that in my
    administration.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:11:51
    16 seconds

    If I can answer the question, number one, I want to
    cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans. Now, it is true that my friend
    and supporter Warren Buffett, for example, could afford to pay a
    little more in taxes in order --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:12:07
    1 second

    We're talking about Joe the plumber. (Laughs.)

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:12:08
    43 seconds

    -- in order to give -- in order to give additional
    tax cuts to Joe the plumber before he was at the point where he could
    make $250,000. Then ExxonMobil, which made $12 billion -- record
    profits -- over the last several quarters, they can afford to pay a
    little more so that ordinary families who are hurting out there, they
    -- they're trying to figure out how they're going to afford food, how
    they're going to save for their kids' college education -- they need a
    break.
    So, look, nobody likes taxes. I would prefer that none of us had
    to pay taxes, including myself. But ultimately we've got to pay for
    the core investments that make this economy strong, and somebody's got
    to do it.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:12:51
    2 seconds

    If nobody likes taxes, let's not raise anybody's
    taxes, okay?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:12:53
    1 second

    Well, I don't mind paying a little more.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:12:54
    34 seconds

    The fact is that businesses in America today are
    paying the second-highest tax rate of anywhere in the world.
    Our tax rates for business in America is 35 percent. Ireland, it's 11
    percent. Where are companies going to go where they can create jobs
    and where they can do best in business? We need to cut the the
    business tax rate in America. We need to encourage business now. Of
    all times in America, we need to cut people's taxes. We need to
    encourage business, create jobs, not spread the wealth around.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:13:28
    58 seconds

    All right. Let -- let's go to another topic.
    It's related, so if you have other things you want to say, you can get
    back to that.
    This question goes to you first, Senator Obama. We found out
    yesterday that this year's deficit will reach an astounding record
    high of $455 billion. Some experts say it could go to a trillion
    dollars next year. Both of you have said you want to reduce the
    deficit, but the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal
    Budget ran the numbers on both of your proposals, and they say the
    cost of your proposals, even with the savings you claim can be made,
    each will add more than $200 billion to the deficit.
    Aren't you both ignoring reality? Won't some of the programs
    you're proposing have to be trimmed, postponed, even eliminated? Give
    us some specifics on what you're going to cut back.
    Senator Obama.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:14:26
    31 seconds

    Well, first of all, I think, it's important for the
    American public to understand that the $750 billion rescue package, if
    it's structured properly and, as president, I will make sure it's
    structured properly, means that ultimately taxpayers get their money
    back. And that's important to understand. But there is no doubt that
    we've been living beyond our means. And we're going to have to make
    some adjustments.
    Now, what I've done throughout this campaign is to propose a net
    spending cut. I haven't made a promise about --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:14:57
    2 seconds

    (Off mike) -- cut some of these programs, sir.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:14:59
    1 minute

    Absolutely. So let me get to that.
    What I want to emphasize though is that I have been a strong
    proponent of pay-as-you-go. Every dollar that I've proposed, I've
    proposed an additional cut, so that it matches. And some of the cuts,
    just to give you an example, we spend $15 billion a year on subsidies
    to insurance companies.
    It doesn't -- under the Medicare plan, it doesn't help seniors get any
    better. It's not improving our health care system. It's just a
    giveaway.
    We need to eliminate a whole host of programs that don't work,
    and I want to go through the federal budget line by line, page by
    page. Programs that don't work, we should cut. Programs that we
    need, we should make them work better.
    Now, what is true is that Senator McCain and I have a difference
    in terms of the need to invest in America, in the American people. I
    mentioned health care earlier. If we make investments now so that
    people have coverage, that we are preventing diseases, that will save
    on Medicare and Medicaid in the future. If we invest in a serious
    energy policy, that will save in the amount of money we're borrowing
    from China to send to Saudi Arabia. If we invest now in our young
    people and their ability to go to college, that will allow them to
    drive this economy into the 21st century.
    But what is absolutely true is that once we get through this
    economic crisis and some of the specific proposals to get us out of
    this slump, that we're not going to be able to go back our profligate
    ways and we're going to have to embrace a culture and an ethic of
    responsibility, all of us, corporations, the federal government and
    individuals out there who may be living beyond their means.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:16:37
    1 second

    Time's up.
    Senator?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:16:38
    28 seconds

    Well, thank you, Bob. I just want to get back to
    this homeownership. During the Depression era, we had a thing called
    the Homeownership Loan Corporation. And they went out and bought up
    these mortgages, and people were able to stay in their homes. And
    eventually the values of those homes went up and they actually made
    money. And by the way, this was a proposal made by Senator Clinton
    not too long ago.
    So obviously if we can start increasing home values, then there
    will be creation of wealth.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:17:06

    But what --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:17:06
    1 second

    But --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:17:07
    1 second

    The question was, what are you going to cut?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:17:08
    58 seconds

    Okay. All right. Energy -- on -- well, first --
    second of all, energy-independent -- we have to nuclear power. We
    have to stop sending $700 billion a year to countries that don't like
    us very much. It's wind, tide, solar, natural gas, nuclear, offshore
    drilling, which Senator Obama has opposed. And the point is that we
    become energy-independent, and we will create millions of jobs,
    millions of jobs in America.
    Okay. What -- what would I cut? I would have, first of all, an
    across-the-board spending freeze, okay?
    That -- some people say that's a hatchet. That's a hatchet, and then
    I would get out a scalpel, okay, because we've got -- we have presided
    over the largest increase -- we got to have new direction for this
    country. We have presided over the largest increase in government
    since the Great Society. Government spending has gone completely out
    of control. Ten trillion dollar debt we're giving to our kids; a half
    a trillion dollars we owe China.
    I know how to save billions of dollars in defense spending. I
    know how to eliminate programs. I have fought against --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:18:06
    1 second

    Which ones?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:18:07
    48 seconds

    Well, one of them would be the marketing assistance
    program.
    Another one would be a -- a number of subsidies for ethanol. I
    opposed subsidies for ethanol because I thought it distorted the
    market and created inflation. Senator Obama supported those
    subsidies.
    I would eliminate the tariff on imported sugarcane-based ethanol
    from Brazil.
    I know how to save billions. I saved the taxpayer $6.8 billion
    by fighting a deal for a couple of years, as you might recall, that
    was a sweetheart deal between an aircraft manufacturer, DOD, and
    people ended up in jail.
    But I would fight for a line-item veto, and I would certainly
    veto every earmark, pork-barrel bill. Senator Obama has asked for
    nearly $1 billion in pork-barrel earmark projects, including $3
    million for an overhead projector in a planetarium in his hometown.
    That's not the way we cut --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:18:55
    7 seconds

    Time's --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:19:02
    2 seconds

    We'll cut out all the pork.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:19:04
    1 second

    Time's up.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:19:05
    1 minute

    Well, look, I -- I think that we do have a
    disagreement about a(n) across-the-board spending freeze. It -- it
    sounds good. It's proposed periodically. It doesn't happen. And in
    fact, an across-the-board spending freeze is a hatchet, and we do need
    a scalpel, because there are some programs that don't work at all.
    There are some programs that are underfunded. And I want to make sure
    that we are focused on those programs that work.
    Now, Senator McCain talks a lot about earmarks. That's one of
    the centerpieces of his campaign. Earmarks account for one-half of 1
    percent of the total federal budget. There's no doubt that the system
    needs reform and there are a lot of screwy things that we end up
    spending money on, and they need to be eliminated. But it's not going
    to solve the problem.
    Now, the last thing I think we have to focus on is a little bit
    of history, just so we understand what we're doing going forward.
    When President Bush came into office, we had a budget surplus.
    And the national debt was a little over $5 trillion. It has doubled
    over the last eight years. And we are now looking at a deficit of
    well over $0.5 trillion.
    So one of the things that, I think, we have to recognize is,
    pursuing the same kinds of policies that we've pursued, over the last
    eight years, is not going to bring down the deficit. And frankly
    Senator McCain voted for four out of five of President Bush's bu.
    We've got to take this in a new direction. That's what I'd
    propose as president.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:20:32
    8 seconds

    Do either of you think you can balance the budget
    in four years?
    You have said previously you thought you could, Senator McCain.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:20:40
    1 second

    Sure, I do. And let me --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:20:41
    1 second

    You'd still do that.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:20:42
    42 seconds

    Yeah.
    Senator Obama, I am not President Bush. If you wanted to run
    against President Bush, you should have run four years ago.
    I'm going to give a new direction to this economy in this
    country. Senator Obama talks about voting for budgets. He voted
    twice for a budget resolution that increases the taxes on individuals
    making $42,000 a year.
    Of course, we can take a hatchet and a scalpel to this budget.
    It's completely out of control.
    The mayor of New York, Mayor Bloomberg, just posed a(n) across-
    the-board spending freeze on New York City. They're doing it all over
    America because they have to, because they have to balance their
    budgets. I will balance our budgets and I will get them in --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:21:24
    1 second

    Four years --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:21:25
    55 seconds

    And I will reduce the -- I can -- we can do it with
    this kind of job creation of energy independence.
    Now, look, Americans are hurting tonight and they're angry. And
    I understand that. And they want a new direction. I can bring them
    in that direction by eliminating spending.
    Senator Obama talks about the budgets I voted for.
    He voted for
    the last two budgets that had $24 billion more in spending than the --
    than the budget that the Bush administration proposed. He voted for
    the energy bill that was full of goodies for the oil companies that I
    opposed.
    So the fact is let's look at our record, Senator Obama. Let's
    look at -- it's graded by the National Taxpayers Union and the
    Citizens Against Government Waste and the other watchdog
    organizations. I have fought against spending. I have fought against
    special interests. I have fought for reform. You have to tell me one
    time when you have stood up with the leaders of your party on one
    single major issue.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:22:20

    Barack.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:22:20
    19 seconds

    Well, the -- there was a lot of stuff that was put
    out there, so let me try to address it.
    First of all, in terms of standing up to the leaders of my party,
    the first major bill that I voted on in the Senate was in support of
    tort reform, which wasn't very popular with trial lawyers, a major
    constituency in the Democratic Party. I support --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:22:39
    1 second

    An overwhelming vote.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:22:40
    1 minute

    I support charter schools and pay-for-performance
    for teachers. Doesn't make me popular with the teachers' union.
    I support clean-coal technology. Doesn't make me popular with
    environmentalists.
    So I've got a history of reaching across the aisle.
    Now, with respect to a couple of things Senator McCain said, the
    notion that I voted for a tax increase for people making $42,000 a
    year has been disputed by everybody who's looked at this claim that
    Senator McCain keeps on making.
    Even Fox News disputes it, and -- and
    -- (laughter) -- and -- and that doesn't happen very often when it
    comes to accusations about me.
    So -- (chuckles) -- so the -- the -- the fact of the matter is,
    is that if I occasionally mistaken your policies for George Bush's
    policies, it's because on the core economic issues that matter to the
    American people -- on tax policy, on energy policy, on spending
    priorities -- you have been a vigorous supporter of President Bush.
    Now you've shown independence, commendable independence, on some
    key issues like torture, for example, and -- and I give you enormous
    credit for that. But when it comes to economic policies, essentially
    what you're proposing is eight more years of the same thing. And it
    hasn't worked, and I think the American people understand it hasn't
    worked. We need to move in a new direction.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:24:03
    2 seconds

    All right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:24:05
    1 second

    Let me -- let me just say, Bob --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:24:06
    1 second

    Okay. About 30 seconds.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:24:07
    40 seconds

    Okay. But it's -- it's very clear that I have
    disagreed with the Bush administration. I have disagreed with leaders
    of my own party. I got the scars to prove it. Whether it be bringing
    climate change to the floor of the Senate for the first time; whether
    it be opposition to spending and earmarks; whether it be the issue of
    torture; whether it be the conduct of the war in Iraq, which I
    vigorously opposed; whether it be on fighting the pharmaceutical
    companies on Medicare -- on prescription drugs, importation; whether
    it be fighting for an HMO patients bill of rights; whether it be the
    establishment of the 9/11 commission, I have a long record of reform
    and fighting through on the floor of the United States Senate.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:24:47
    1 second

    All right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:24:48
    5 seconds

    Senator Obama, your -- your -- your argument for
    standing up to the leaders of your party isn't very convincing.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:24:53
    48 seconds

    All right.
    We're going to move to another question. And the topic is
    leadership in this campaign. Both of you pledged to take the high
    road in this campaign. Yet it has turned very nasty.
    Senator Obama, your campaign has used words like erratic, out of
    touch, lie, angry, losing his bearings -- (audio break).
    Senator McCain, your commercials have included words like
    disrespectful, dangerous, dishonorable, he lied. Your running mate
    said he palled around with terrorists.
    Are each of you tonight willing to sit at this table and say, to
    each other's face, what your campaigns and the people in your
    campaigns have said about each other?
    And Senator McCain, you're first.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:25:41
    2 minutes

    Well, this has been a tough campaign. It's been a
    very tough campaign.
    And I know from my experience in many campaigns that if Senator Obama
    had asked -- responded to my urgent request to sit down and do town-
    hall meetings and come before the American people, we could have done
    at least 10 of them by now. When Senator Obama was first asked, he
    said anyplace, anytime -- the way Barry Goldwater and Jack Kennedy
    agreed to do before the intervention of the tragedy at Dallas.
    So I think the tone of this campaign could have been very
    different. And the fact is, it's gotten pretty tough, and I regret
    some of the negative aspects of both campaigns. But the fact is that
    it has taken many turns which I think are unacceptable. One of them
    happened just the other day, when a man I admire and respect -- I've
    written about him -- Congressman John Lewis, an American hero -- made
    allegations that Sarah Palin and I were somehow associated with the
    worst chapter in American history: segregation, deaths of children in
    church bombings, George Wallace. That -- that, to me, was so hurtful.
    And Senator Obama, you didn't repudiate those remarks. Every time
    there's been an out-of-bounds remark made by a Republican, no matter
    where they are, I have repudiated them. I hope that Senator Obama
    will repudiate those remarks that were made by Congressman John Lewis.
    They're very unfair and totally inappropriate.
    So I want to tell you, we will run a truthful campaign. This is
    a tough campaign. And it's a matter of fact that Senator Obama has
    spent more money on negative ads than any political campaign in
    history, and I can prove it.
    And Senator Obama, when he said -- and he signed a piece of paper
    that said he would take public financing for his campaign if I did.
    That was back when he was a long-shot candidate. You didn't keep your
    word. And when you looked into the camera in a debate with Senator
    Clinton and said, "I will sit down and negotiate with John McCain
    about public financing before I make a decision," you didn't tell the
    American people the truth, because you didn't. And that's -- that's
    -- that's an unfortunate part. Now we have the highest spending by
    Senator Obama's campaign than any time --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:27:59
    1 second

    Time's up.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:28:00
    1 second

    -- since Watergate.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:28:01
    28 seconds

    All right.
    Well, look, you know, I think that we expect presidential
    campaigns to be tough. I think that if you look at the record and the
    impressions of the American people -- Bob, your network just did a
    poll showing that two-thirds of the American people think that Senator
    McCain's running a negative campaign versus one-third of mine. And
    100 percent, John, of your ads -- 100 percent of them -- have been
    negative.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:28:29
    1 second

    That's not true.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:28:30
    1 minute

    A hundred -- it -- it absolutely is true. And --
    and -- now, I think the American people are less interested in our
    hurt feelings during the course of the campaign than addressing the
    issues that matter to them so deeply. And there is nothing wrong with
    us having a vigorous debate, like we're having tonight, about health
    care, about energy policy, about tax policy. That's the stuff that
    campaigns should be made of.
    The notion, though, that because we're not doing town-hall
    meetings, that justifies some of the ads that have been going up not
    just from your own campaign directly, John, but 527s and other
    organizations that make some pretty tough accusations -- well, I don't
    mind being attacked for the next three weeks.
    What the American people can't afford though is four more years of
    failed economic policies. And what they deserve over the next four
    weeks is that we talk about what's most pressing to them -- the
    economic crisis.
    Senator McCain's own campaign said publicly last week that if we
    keep on talking about the economic crisis, we lose, so we need to
    change the subject. And I would love to see the next three weeks
    devoted to talking about the economy, devoted to talking about health
    care, devoted to talking about energy and figuring out how the
    American people can send their kids to college.
    And that is something that I would welcome. But it -- it
    requires, I think, a recognition that politics as usual, as has been
    practiced over the last several years, is not solving the big problems
    here in America.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:30:12
    6 seconds

    Well, if you'll turn on the television, as I -- I
    watched the Arizona Cardinals defeat the Dallas Cowboys on Sunday.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:30:18
    1 second

    Congratulations.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:30:19
    1 minute

    Every other ad -- (laughter) -- every other ad was
    an attack ad on my health care plan.
    And any objective observer has said it's not true.
    You're running ads right now that say that I oppose federal
    funding for stem cell research. I don't. You're running ads that --
    that misportray completely my position on immigration.
    So the fact is that Senator Obama is spending unprecedented --
    unprecedented in the history of American politics, going back to the
    beginning -- amounts of money in negative attack ads on me.
    And of course I've been talking about the economy. Of course
    I've talked to people like Joe the plumber and tell him that I'm not
    going to spread his wealth around. I'm going to let him keep his
    wealth. And of course we're talking about a positive plan of action
    to restore this economy and restore jobs in America. That's what my
    campaign is all about, and that's what it'll continue to be all about.
    But again, I did not hear a repudiation of Congressman Lewis's
    remarks.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:31:21
    47 seconds

    Well, I mean, look, if we want to talk about
    Congressman Lewis, who is an American hero, he -- unprompted by my
    campaign, without my campaign's awareness -- made a statement that he
    was troubled with what he was hearing at some of the rallies that your
    running mate was holding, in which all the public reports indicated
    were shouting, when my name came up, things like "terrorist" and "Kill
    him," and that your running mate didn't mention -- didn't stop, didn't
    say, "Hold on a second. That's kind of out of line."
    And I think Congressman Lewis's point was that we have to be
    careful about how we deal with our supporters.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:32:08
    1 second

    (Laughs.) You've got to read what he said --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:32:09
    1 second

    Now, John -- John -- let --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:32:10
    1 second

    You've got to read what he said.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:32:11
    1 second

    Let me -- let me -- let me complete --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:32:12
    1 second

    Go ahead.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:32:13
    48 seconds

    -- my response. I do think that he inappropriately
    drew a comparison between what was happening there and what had
    happened during the civil rights movement. And we immediately put out
    a statement saying that we don't think that comparison is appropriate.
    And in fact, afterwards, Congressman Lewis put out a (similar ?)
    statement saying that he had probably gone over the line.
    The important point here is, though, the American people have
    become so cynical about our politics because all they see is a tit for
    tat and back and forth.
    And what they want is the ability to just focus on some really big
    challenges that we face right now. And that's what I have been trying
    to focus on this entire campaign.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:01
    1 second

    I cannot --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:33:02
    4 seconds

    We can have serious differences about our health
    care policy, for example, John, because --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:06
    1 second

    Yeah.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:33:07
    1 second

    -- we do have a difference on health care policy --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:08
    1 second

    We do, and I hope we talk about it.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:33:09
    2 seconds

    -- and we'll spend some time talking about it this
    evening.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:11
    2 seconds

    All right, sure.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:33:13
    5 seconds

    But when people suggest that I pal around with
    terrorists, then we're not talking about issues --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:18
    1 second

    Well --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:33:19
    1 second

    -- what we're talking about are --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:20
    1 second

    Well, let -- let me just say, I -- I --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:33:21
    1 second

    Does he pal around with terrorists?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:33:22
    57 seconds

    Let me just say categorically I'm proud of the
    people that come to our rallies. Whenever you get a large rally of
    10(,000), 15(,000), 20,000 people, you're going to have some fringe
    peoples. You know -- you know that. And -- and I've -- and we've
    always said that that's not appropriate. But to somehow say that that
    group of young women who said "Military Wives for McCain" are somehow
    saying anything derogatory about you but are anything -- and those
    veterans that wear those hats that say World War II, Vietnam, Korea,
    Iraq -- I'm not going to stand for people saying that the people come
    -- that come to my rallies are anything but the most dedicated,
    patriotic men and women that -- that are in this nation, and -- and
    they're great citizens.
    And I'm not going to stand for somebody saying that because
    someone yelled something at a rally -- there's a lot of things that
    have been yelled at your rallies, Senator Obama, that I'm not happy
    about either, in fact, some T-shirts that are very unacceptable.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:34:19
    1 second

    (Off mike.)

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:34:20
    21 seconds

    So the point is -- the point is that I have
    repudiated every time someone has been out of line, whether they've
    been part of my campaign or not. And I will continue to do that. But
    the -- but the fact is that we need to absolutely not stand for the
    kind of things that have been going on. I haven't.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:34:41
    1 second

    Well, look, Bob, as I said --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:34:42
    3 seconds

    I mean, do you take issue with that?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:34:45
    53 seconds

    You know, here's what I would say. I mean, we can
    have a debate back and forth about the merits of each other's
    campaigns. I suspect we won't agree here tonight.
    What I think is most important is that we recognize that to solve
    the key problems that we're facing, if we're going to solve two wars,
    the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, if we can -- if
    we're going to focus on lifting wages that have declined, over the
    last eight years, and create jobs here in America, then Democrats,
    independents and Republicans, we're going to have to be able to work
    together.
    And what is important is making sure that we disagree without being
    disagreeable. And it means that we can have tough, vigorous debates
    around issues. What we can't do, I think, is try to characterize each
    other as bad people, and that --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:35:38

    Well --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:35:38
    6 seconds

    -- has been a culture in Washington that -- that's
    been taking place for too long. And I think that on -- I think --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:35:44
    1 second

    Well, Bob, you asked me a direct question about --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:35:45
    1 second

    Short question.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:35:46
    35 seconds

    Yeah, real quick.
    Mr. Ayers, I don't care about an old, washed-up terrorist. But
    as Senator Clinton said in her debates with you, we need to know the
    full extent of that relationship. We need to know the full extent of
    Senator Obama's relationship with ACORN, who is now on the verge of
    maybe perpetrating one of the greatest frauds in voter history in this
    country, maybe destroying the fabric of democracy -- same front outfit
    -- organization that your campaign gave $832,000 for for, quote,
    "lighting and site selection." So all of these things need to be
    examined --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:36:21
    1 second

    All right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:36:22
    1 second

    -- of course.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:36:23
    2 seconds

    All right. I'm going to let you respond, but
    we'll extend this just for a moment.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:36:25
    2 minutes

    I think it's going to be -- it's going to be
    important to just -- I'll respond to these two particular allegations
    that Senator McCain's made that have gotten a lot of attention. In
    fact Mr. Ayers has become the centerpiece of Senator McCain's campaign
    over the last two or three weeks. This has been their primary focus.
    So let's get the record straight.
    Bill Ayers is a professor of education in Chicago. Forty years
    ago, when I was eight years old, he engaged in despicable acts with a
    radical domestic group. I have roundly condemned those acts.
    Ten years ago, he served and I served on a -- (brief audio break)
    -- board that was funded by one of Ronald Reagan's former ambassadors
    and close friends, Mr. Annenberg. Other members on that board were
    the presidents of the University of Illinois; the president of
    Northwestern University, who happens to be a Republican; the president
    of the Chicago Tribune, a Republican-leaning newspaper.
    Mr. Ayers is not involved in my campaign.
    He has never been
    involved in this campaign. And he will not advise me in the White
    House. So that's Mr. Ayers.
    Now with respect to ACORN, ACORN is a community organization.
    Apparently what they have done is they were paying people to go out
    and register folks.
    And apparently some of the people who were out there didn't really
    register people, they just filled out a bunch of names. Had nothing
    to do with us. We were not involved. The only involvement I've had
    with ACORN was I represented them alongside the U.S. Justice
    Department in making Illinois implement a motor voter law that helped
    people get register (sic) at DMVs.
    Now, the reason I think that it's important to just get these
    facts out is because the allegation that Senator McCain's continually
    made is that somehow my associations are troubling. Let me tell you
    who I associate with. On economic policy, I associate with Warren
    Buffett and former Fed Chairman Paul Volcker. If I'm interested in
    figuring out my foreign policy, I associate myself with my running
    mate, Joe Biden, or with Dick Lugar, the Republican ranking member on
    the Senate Foreign Relations Committee or General Jim Jones, the
    former supreme allied commander of NATO. Those are the people,
    Democrats and Republicans, who have shaped my ideas and who will be
    surrounding me in the White House.
    And I think the fact that this has become such a(n) important
    part of your campaign, Senator McCain, says more about your campaign
    than it says about me.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:39:04
    13 seconds

    Well, again, while you were on the board of the
    Woods Foundation, you and Mr. Ayers together, you sent $230,000 to
    ACORN. So -- and you launched your political campaign in Mr. Ayers'
    living room.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:39:17
    2 seconds

    That's absolutely not true.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:39:19
    3 seconds

    And -- and the facts are facts, and records are
    records.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:39:22

    That's not the facts.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:39:22
    41 seconds

    And it's not the fact -- it's not the fact that
    Senator Obama choose to associate with a guy who in 2001 said that he
    wished he'd have bombed more. And he had a long association with him.
    It's the fact that all -- all of the details need to be known about
    Senator Obama's relationship with them and with ACORN.
    And the American people will make a judgment. And my campaign is
    about getting this economy back on track, about creating jobs, about a
    brighter future for America. And that's what my campaign is about.
    And I'm not going to raise taxes the way Senator Obama wants to raise
    taxes in a tough economy. And that's really what this -- this
    campaign is going to be about.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:40:03
    30 seconds

    All right. All right. Let's go to the next
    topic. And you -- we may want to get back into some of this during
    this next discussion.
    I want to as both of you about the people that you're going to
    bring into the government. And our best insight yet is who you picked
    as your running mates. So I'll begin by asking both of you this
    question.
    And I'll ask you to answer first, Senator Obama. Why would the
    country be better off if your running mate became president rather
    than his running mate?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:40:33
    2 minutes

    Well, Joe Biden, I think, is one of the finest
    public servants that has served in this country.
    It's not just that he has some of the best foreign policy credentials
    of anybody -- and Democrats and Republicans alike I think acknowledge
    his expertise there -- but it's also that his entire life he has never
    forgotten where he came from: coming from Scranton, fighting on
    behalf of working families, remembering what it's like to see his
    father lose his job and -- and go through a downward spiral
    economically.
    And as a consequence, his consistent pattern throughout his
    career is to fight for the little guy. That's what he's done when it
    comes to economic policies that will help working families get a leg
    up. That's what he's done when it comes to, for example, passing the
    landmark 1994 crime bill, the Violence Against Womens (sic) Act. Joe
    has always made sure that he is fighting on behalf of working
    families.
    And I think he shares my core values and my sense of where the
    country needs to go because after eight years of failed policies, he
    and I both agree that what we're going to have to do is to re-
    prioritize, make sure that we're investing in the American people;
    give tax cuts not to the wealthiest corporations, but give them to
    small businesses and give them to individuals who are struggling right
    now; make sure that we finally get serious about energy independence,
    something that has been languishing in Washington for 30 years; and
    make sure that our kids get a great education and can afford to go to
    college.
    So on the key issues that are of importance to American families,
    Joe Biden's already -- always been on the right side, and I think he
    will make an outstanding president if, heaven forbid, something
    happened to me.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:42:34
    1 second

    Senator.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:42:35
    1 minute

    Well, Americans have gotten to know Sarah Palin.
    They know that she's a role model to women and other -- and reformers
    all over America. She's a reformer. She is -- she took on a governor
    who was a member of her own party when she ran for governor. When she
    was the head of their energy and natural resources board, she saw
    corruption, she resigned. She's -- and -- and said this can't go on.
    She's given money back to the taxpayers. She's cut the size of
    government. She negotiated with the oil companies -- and faced them
    down -- a $40 billion pipeline of natural gas that's going to relieve
    the energy needs of the United -- of -- of what they call the "Lower
    48." She's a reformer through and through, and it's time we had that
    breash of freath -- breath of fresh air coming in to our nation's
    capital and sweep out the old-boy network and the cronyism that's been
    so much a part of it that I've fought against for all these years.
    She'll be my partner. She understands reform.
    And by the way, she also understands special-needs families. She
    understands that autism is on the rise, that we got to find out what's
    causing it and we've got to reach out to these families and help them
    and give them the help they need as they raise these very special
    needs children.
    She understands that better than almost any American that I know. I'm
    proud of her and that she has ignited our party and people all over
    America that have never been involved in the political process. And I
    can't tell you how proud I am of her and her family. Her husband's a
    pretty tough guy, by the way, too.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:44:13
    1 second

    Do you think she's qualified to be president?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:44:14
    51 seconds

    You know, I think it's -- that's going to be up to
    the American people. I think that obviously she's a capable -- (audio
    break) -- has, I think, excited the -- a base in the Republican Party.
    And I think it's very commendable -- the work she's done on behalf of
    special needs. I agree with that, John.
    I do want to just point out that autism, for example, or other
    special needs will require some additional funding if we're going to
    get serious in terms of research. That is something that every family
    that advocates on behalf of disabled children talk about. And if we
    have a across-the-board spending freeze, we're not going to be able to
    do it. That's an example of, I think, the kind of -- the use of the
    scalpel that we want to make sure that we're funding some of those
    programs.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:45:05
    2 seconds

    Do you think Senator Biden is qualified?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:45:07
    1 minute

    Oh, I think that Joe Biden is qualified in many
    respects, but I do point out that he's been wrong on many foreign
    policy and national security issues, which is supposed to be his
    strength. He voted against the first Gulf War.
    He voted against it, and obviously we had to take Saddam Hussein out
    of Kuwait or it would have threatened the Middle Eastern oil supply.
    In Iraq, he had this cockamamie idea about dividing Iraq into
    three countries. We're seeing Iraq united as Iraqis. It's tough,
    hard -- but we're seeing them -- we're now about to have an agreement
    for status of forces in Iraq coming up.
    There are several issues in which, frankly, Joe Biden and I
    openly and honestly disagreed on national security policy. And he's
    been wrong on a number of the major ones.
    But again, I want to come back to -- you know, notice, every
    time, Senator Obama says, "We need to spend more. We need to spend
    more. That's the answer." Why do we always have to spend more? Why
    can't we have transparency, accountability, reform of these agencies
    of government? Maybe that's why he's asked for 860 -- sought and
    proposed $860 billion worth of new spending and -- and wants to raise
    people's taxes in a time of incredible challenge and difficulty and
    heartache for the American families.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:46:24
    10 seconds

    Let's go to -- let's go to a new topic here.
    We're running a little behind.
    Let's talk about energy and climate control. Every president
    since Nixon has said what both of you have said --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:46:34
    2 seconds

    Climate change.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:46:36
    33 seconds

    Climate change, yes -- has said what both of you
    have said, and that is we must reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
    When Nixon said it, we imported from 17 to 34 percent of our foreign
    oil. Now we're importing more than 60 percent.
    Would each of you give us a number, a specific number of how much
    you believe we can reduce our foreign oil imports during your first
    term?
    And I believe the first question goes to you, Senator McCain.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:47:09
    1 minute

    I believe we can, for all intents and purposes,
    eliminate our dependence on Middle Eastern oil and Venezuelan oil.
    Canadian oil is fine.
    By the way, when Senator Obama said he would unilaterally
    renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement, the Canadians
    said, yeah, and we'll sell our -- our oil to China. You don't tell
    countries you're going to unilaterally renegotiate agreements with
    them.
    We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new
    nuclear power plants right away. We can store and we can reprocess.
    Senator Obama will tell you, in the -- as the extreme
    environmentalists do, it has to be safe.
    Look, we've sailed Navy ships around the world for 60 years with
    nuclear power plants on them. We can store and reprocess spent
    nuclear fuel, Senator Obama, no problem.
    So the point is, with nuclear power, with wind, tides, solar,
    natural gas, with development of flex fuel, hybrid, clean coal
    technology. Clean coal technology is a key in the heartland of
    America that's hurting rather badly.
    So I think we can easily, within 7, 8, 10 years, if we put our
    minds to it, we can eliminate our dependence on the places in the
    world that harm our national security, if we don't achieve our
    independence from them.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:48:33
    9 seconds

    All right.
    Can we reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and by how much in
    the first term, your -- in four years?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:48:42
    2 minutes

    I -- I think that in 10 years we can reduce our
    dependence so that we no longer have to import oil from the Middle
    East or Venezuela. I think that's about a realistic time frame.
    And -- and this is the most important issue that our future
    economy is going to face. Obviously, we've got an immediate crisis
    right now, but nothing's more important than us no longer borrowing
    $700 billion or more from China and sending it to Saudi Arabia. It's
    mortgaging our children's future.
    Now, from the start of this campaign I've identified this as one
    of my top priorities, and here's what I think we have to do.
    Number one, we do need to expand domestic production. And that
    means, for example, telling the oil companies the 68 million acres
    that they currently have leased that they're not drilling, use 'em or
    lose 'em. And I think that we should look at offshore drilling and
    implement it in a way that allows us to get some additional oil.
    But understand, we only have 3 (percent) to 4 percent of the
    world's oil reserves and we use 25 percent of the world's oil, which
    means that we can't drill our way out of the problem. And that's why
    I focused on putting resources into solar, wind, biodiesel,
    geothermal. These have been priorities of mine since I got to the
    Senate, and it is absolutely critical we -- that we develop a high-
    fuel-efficient car that's built not in Japan and not in South Korea,
    but built here in the United States of America.
    We -- we invented the auto industry, and the fact that we have fallen
    so far behind is something that we have to work on.
    Now, I just want to make one last point because Senator McCain
    mentioned NAFTA and the issue of trade, and that actually bears on
    this issue. I believe in free trade, but I also believe that for far
    too long, certainly during the course of the Bush administration with
    the support of Senator McCain, the attitude's been that any trade
    agreement is a good trade agreement. And NAFTA doesn't have -- did
    not have enforceable labor agreements and environmental agreements,
    and what I said was we should incluse (sic) those and make them
    enforceable in the same way that we should enforce rules against China
    manipulating its currency to make our exports more expensive and their
    exports to us cheaper. And when it comes to South Korea, we've got a
    trade agreement up right now -- they are sending hundreds of thousands
    of South Korean cars into the United States -- that's all good -- we
    can only get 4(,000 to 5,000 into South Korea. That is not free
    trade. We've got to have a president who is going to be advocating on
    behalf of American businesses and American workers, and I make no
    apology for that.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:51:24
    1 second

    Senator.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:51:25
    1 minute

    Well, you know, I -- I -- I admire so much Senator
    Obama's eloquence, and you really have to pay attention to words. He
    said we will "look at" offshore drilling. Did you get that? "Look
    at." We can offshore drill now. We've got to do it now. We will
    reduce the cost of a barrel of oil because we show the world that we
    have a supply of our own. It's doable, the technology is there, and
    we have to drill now.
    Now, on the subject of free trade agreements, I am a free trader.
    And I need -- we need to have education and training programs for
    displaced workers that work, going to our community colleges. But let
    me give you another example of a free trade agreement that Senator
    Obama opposes.
    Right now because of previous agreements, some made by President
    Clinton, the goods and products that we send to Colombia, which is our
    largest agricultural importer of our products, there's 100 -- there's
    $1 billion that we -- our businesses have paid so far, in order to get
    our goods in there. Because of previous agreements, their goods and
    products come into our country for free.
    So Senator Obama, who has never traveled south of our border,
    opposes the Colombia free trade agreement; the same country that's
    helping us try to stop the flow of drugs, into our country, that's
    killing young Americans, and also the country that just freed three
    Americans that -- that will help us create jobs in America, because
    they will be a market for our goods and products without have to pay
    -- without us having to pay the billions of dollar -- the billion
    dollars and more that we've already paid.
    Free trade with Colombia is something that's a no-brainer. But
    maybe you ought to travel down there and visit them and maybe you
    could understand it a lot better.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:53:09
    2 minutes

    Let me respond. Actually I understand it pretty
    well.
    The history in Colombia right now is that labor leaders have been
    targeted for assassination, on a fairly consistent basis, and there
    have not been prosecutions.
    And what I have said, because the free trade -- the trade
    agreement itself does have labor and environmental protections -- but
    we have to stand for human rights and we have to make sure that
    violence isn't being perpetrated against workers who are just trying
    to organize for their rights, which is why, for example, I supported
    the Peruvian Free Trade Agreement, which was a well-structured
    agreement.
    But I think that the important point is we've got to have a
    president who understands the benefits of free trade, but also is
    going to enforce unfair trade agreements and is going to stand up to
    other countries.
    And last point I'll make, because we started on energy, you know,
    when I talked about the auto makers, they are obviously getting
    hammered right now. They were already -- already having a tough time
    because of high gas prices, and now, with the financial crisis, car
    dealerships are closing and people can't get car loans. That's why I
    think it's important for us to get loan guarantees to the auto makers.
    But we do have to hold them responsible, as well, to start
    producing the highly fuel-efficient cars of the future. And, you
    know, Detroit had dragged its feet too long in terms of getting that
    done. It's going to be one of my highest priorities, because
    transportation accounts for about 30 percent of our total energy
    consumption. If we can get that right, then we can move in a
    direction not only of energy independence, but we can create 5 million
    new jobs all across America, including in the heartland, where we can
    retool some of these plants to make these highly fuel-efficient cars,
    and also to make wind turbines and -- and solar panels, the kinds of
    clean energy approaches that should be the driver of our economy for
    the next -- for the next century.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:55:20
    56 seconds

    Well, let me just say that -- that this is -- he --
    Senator Obama doesn't want a free trade agreement with our best ally
    in the region but wants to sit down across the table without
    precondition to -- with Hugo Chavez, the guy who has been helping
    FARC, the terrorist organization. Free trade between ourselves and
    Colombia, I -- I just recited to you the benefits of concluding that
    agreement -- a billion dollars of American dollars that could have
    gone to creating jobs and businesses in the United States, opening up
    those markets. So I don't think there's any doubt that Senator Obama
    wants to restrict trade, and he wants to raise taxes. And the last
    president of the United States that tried that was Herbert Hoover, and
    we went from a deep recession into a depression. We're not going to
    follow that path while I'm -- when I'm president of the United States.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:56:16
    17 seconds

    All right. Let's go to a new topic, health care.
    Given the current economic situation, would either of you now favor
    controlling health care costs over expanding health care coverage?
    The question is first to Senator Obama.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 00:56:33
    2 minutes

    We've got to do both, and that's exactly what my
    plan does.
    Look, as I travel around the country, this is the issue that will
    break your heart over and over again. Just yesterday I was in Toledo,
    shaking some hands in a line. Two women, both of them probably in
    their mid- to late 50s, had just been laid off of their plant.
    Neither of them have health insurance. And they were desperate for
    some way of getting coverage because, understandably, they're worried
    that if they get sick, they could go bankrupt.
    So here -- here's what my plan does.
    If you have health insurance, then you don't have to do anything.
    If you've got health insurance through your employer, you can keep
    your health insurance, keep your choice of doctor, keep your plan.
    The only thing we're going to try to do is lower costs so that those
    cost savings are passed on to you. And we estimate we can cut the
    average family's premium by about $2,500 per year.
    If you don't have health insurance, then what we're going to do
    is to provide you the option of buying into the same kind of federal
    pool that both Senator McCain and I enjoy as federal employees, which
    will give you high-quality care, choice of doctors, at lower cost
    because so many people are part of this insured group.
    We're going to make sure that insurance companies can't
    discriminate on the basis of preexisting conditions. We'll negotiate
    with the drug companies for the cheapest available price on drugs. We
    are going to invest in information technology to eliminate bureaucracy
    and make the system more efficient.
    And we are going to make sure that we manage chronic illnesses like
    diabetes and heart disease that cost a huge amount but could be
    prevented.
    We've got to put more money into preventive care. This will cost
    some money on the front end. But over the long term, this is the only
    way that not only are we going to make families healthy, but it's also
    how we're going to save the federal budget, because we can't afford
    these escalating costs.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 00:58:36
    2 seconds

    All right.
    Senator McCain.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 00:58:38
    1 minute

    Well, it is a terribly painful situation for
    Americans. They're seeing their premiums, their co-pays go up. 47
    million Americans are without health insurance in American today. And
    it really is the costs, the escalating costs of health care that are
    inflicting such pain on working families and people across this
    country. And I am convinced we need to do a lot of things.
    We need to put health care records online. The VA does that.
    That will -- that will reduce costs. We need to have more community
    health centers. We need to have walk-in clinics.
    The rise of obesity amongst young Americans is one of the most
    alarming statistics that there is. We should have physical fitness
    programs and nutrition programs in schools. Every parent should know
    what's going on there.
    We need to have -- we need to have employers reward employees who
    join health clubs and practice wellness and fitness. But I want to
    give every American family a $5,000 refundable tax credit. Take it
    and get, anywhere in America, the health care that you wish.
    Now, my old buddy Joe, Joe the plumber, is out there. Now, Joe,
    Senator Obama's plan.
    If you're a small business and you're able and
    you're -- the guy that sells to you will not have a capital gains tax
    increase, which Senator Obama wants.
    If you're out there, my friend, and you've got employees and you've
    got kids, if you don't adopt the health care plan that Senator Obama
    mandates, he's going to fine you.
    Now, Senator Obama, I'd like -- still like to know what that
    fine's going to be. And I don't think that Joe right now wants to pay
    a fine when he is seeing such difficult times in America's economy.
    Senator Obama wants to set up health care bureaucracies, take over the
    health care of America through -- as he said, his object is a single-
    payer system. If you like that -- you'll -- you would love Canada and
    England.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:00:33
    1 second

    Is that your objective?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:00:34
    1 second

    So the point is -- so --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:00:35
    2 seconds

    It is -- it is not. And I just described it --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:00:37
    1 second

    No, you stated it -- excuse me --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:00:38
    9 seconds

    I just described what my plan is. And I'm happy to
    talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there. Here's your fine: zero.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:00:47

    Zero?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:00:47
    2 minutes

    You won't pay a fine because -- zero -- because I --
    as I said in our last debate -- and I'll repeat, John -- I exempt
    small businesses from the requirement for large businesses that can
    afford to provide health care to their employees but are not doing it.
    I exempt small businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But large
    businesses that can afford it -- we've got a choice. Either they
    provide health insurance to their employees or somebody has to.
    Right now what happens is those employees get dumped into either
    the Medicaid system, which taxpayers pick up, or they're going to the
    emergency room for uncompensated care, which everybody picks up in
    their premiums.
    The average family is paying an additional $900 a year in higher
    premiums because of the uninsured.
    So here's what we do. We exempt small businesses. In fact, what
    -- Joe, if you want to do the right thing with your employees and you
    want to provide them health insurance, we'll give you a 50 percent
    credit so that you will actually be able to afford it. If you don't
    have health insurance or you want to be able to buy into a group plan,
    you will be able to buy into the plan that I just described.
    Now, what we haven't talked about is Senator McCain's plan. He
    says he's going to give you all a $5,000 tax credit. That sounds
    pretty good, and you can go out and buy your own insurance. Here's
    the problem: that for about 20 million people, you may find
    yourselves no longer having employer-based health insurance. This is
    because younger people might be able to get health insurance for
    ($)5,000, young and healthy folks; older folks, less-healthy folks,
    what's going to end up happening is that you're going to be the only
    ones left if your employer-based system, your employers won't be able
    to afford it.
    And once you're out on your own with this $5,000 credit, Senator
    McCain for the first time is going to be taxing the health care
    benefits that you have from your employer. And -- and this is your
    plan, John: for the first time in history, you will be taxing
    people's health care benefits.
    By the way, the average policy costs about $12,000. So if you
    got ($)5,000 and it's going to cost you ($)12,000, that's a loss for
    you.
    Last point about Senator McCain's plan is that insurers right now
    -- the main restrictions on what they do is primarily state law, and
    under Senator McCain's plan, those rules would be stripped away, and
    you would start seeing a lot more insurance companies cherry-picking
    and excluding people from coverage. That, I think, is a mistake. And
    you know, I think that this is a fundamental difference in our
    campaign and how we would approach health care.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:03:29
    1 second

    What about that?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:03:30
    2 minutes

    Joe, you're rich. Congratulations, because what
    Joe wanted to do was buy the business that's been he working for 10,
    12 hours a day, seven days a week. And you said that you wanted to --
    to spread the wealth, but -- in other words, take Joe's money and then
    you decide what to do with it.
    Joe, you're rich. Congratulations. And you will then fall into
    the category where you'll have to pay a fine if you don't provide
    health insurance that Senator Obama mandates, not the kind that you
    think is best for your family, your children, your employees, but the
    kind that he mandates for you. That's big government at its best.
    Now, 95 percent of the people in America will receive more money
    under my plan because they will receive not only their present
    benefits, which may be taxed, which will be taxed, but then you add
    $5,000 on to it, except for those people that have the gold-plated
    Cadillac insurance policies that have to do with cosmetic surgery and
    transplants and all of those kinds of things.
    And the good thing about this is they'll be able to go across America.
    The average cost of a health care insurance plan in America today is
    $5,800. I'm going to give 'em $5,000 to take with them wherever they
    want to go. And this will give 'em affordability, this will give 'em
    availability, this will give them a chance to choose their own
    futures, not have Senator Obama and government decide that for them.
    This really gets down to the fundamental difference in our
    philosophies. If you notice that in all of his proposals, Senator
    Government wants -- Senator Obama wants government -- (laughter) -- to
    do the job. Senator Obama wants government to the do -- do the job.
    I want, Joe, you to do the job. I want to leave money in your pocket.
    I want you be -- you to be able to choose the health care for you and
    your family. That's what I'm all about. And we've had too much
    government and too much spending, and the government is --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:05:33

    All right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:05:33
    14 seconds

    -- the size of government has grown by 40 percent
    in the last eight years. We can't afford that in the next eight
    years, and Senator Obama's -- with the Democrats in charge of
    Congress, things have gotten worse. If you noticed, they've been in
    charge the last two years.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:05:47
    2 seconds

    All right, a short response.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:05:49
    36 seconds

    Very brief.
    You all just heard my plan. If you've got an employer-based
    health care plan, you keep it. Now, under Senator McCain's plan,
    there is a strong risk that people would lose their employer-based
    health care. That's the choice you'll have, is having your employer
    no longer provide you health care.
    And don't take my word for it. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce,
    which generally doesn't support a lot of Democrats, said that this
    plan could lead to the unraveling of the employer-based health care
    system.
    All I want to do, if you've already got health care, is lower your
    costs. That includes you, John.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:06:25
    21 seconds

    All right. Let's stop there and go to another
    question. And this one goes to Senator McCain. Senator McCain, you
    believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned. Senator Obama, you believe
    it shouldn't.
    Could either of you ever nominate someone to the Supreme Court
    who disagrees with you on this issue?
    Senator McCain.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:06:46
    7 seconds

    I would never and have never, in all the years I've
    been there, impose a litmus test on any nominee to the court. That's
    not appropriate to do.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:06:53
    2 seconds

    But you do -- you do want Roe v. Wade to be
    overturned.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:06:55
    1 minute

    I think it was a bad decision. I thought it was a
    -- I thought it was a bad decisions. I think there was a lot of
    decisions that were bad.
    I think that the decision should rest in the hands of the states.
    I'm -- I'm a federalist. And I believe strongly that we should have
    nominees to the United States Supreme Court based on their
    qualifications rather than any litmus test.
    Now, let me say that there was a time, a few years ago, when the
    United States Senate was about to blow up. Republicans wanted to have
    just a majority vote to confirm a judge. And the Democrats were
    blocking in an unprecedented fashion.
    We got together, seven Republicans, seven Democrats. You were
    offered a chance to join. You chose not to because you were afraid of
    the appointment of, quote, "conservative" judges.
    I voted for Justice Breyer and Justice Ginsburg, not because I
    agreed with their ideology but because I thought they were qualified
    and that judge -- and that elections have consequences, when
    presidents are nominated.
    This is a very important issue we're talking about. Senator
    Obama voted against Justice Breyer and Justice Roberts on the grounds
    that they didn't meet his ideological standards.
    That's not the way we should judge these nominees. Elections have
    consequences. They should be judged on their qualifications.
    And so I -- that's what I will do. I will find the best people
    in the world -- in -- in the United States of America who have a
    history of strict adherence to the Constitution and --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:08:23

    But even if it was someone --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:08:23
    2 seconds

    -- not legislating from the bench.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:08:25
    5 seconds

    Even someone who had a history of being for
    abortion rights, you would consider them.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:08:30
    18 seconds

    I would consider anyone in their qualifications. I
    do not believe that someone who has supported Roe v. Wade -- that
    would be a part of those qualifications. But I certainly would not
    impose any litmus test.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:08:48
    1 second

    All right.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:08:49
    2 minutes

    Well, I think it's true that we shouldn't apply a
    strict litmus test and the most important thing in any judge is their
    capacity to -- to provide fairness and justice to the American people.
    And it is true that this is going to be, I think, one of the most
    consequential decisions of the next president. It is very likely that
    one of us will be making at least one and probably more than one
    appointments and Roe versus Wade probably hangs in the balance.
    Now, I would not provide a litmus test, but I am somebody who
    believes that Roe versus Wade was rightly decided. I think that
    abortion is a very difficult issue, and it is a moral issue and one
    that I think good people on both sides can disagree on. But what
    ultimately I believe is -- is that women, in consultation with their
    families, their doctors, their religious advisors -- are in a best
    position to make this decision.
    And I think that the Constitution has a right to privacy in it that
    shouldn't be subject to state referendum in the -- any more than, you
    know, our First Amendment rights are subject to state referendum, any
    more than, you know, many of the other rights that we have should be
    subject to, you know, popular vote.
    So this is going to be an important issue. I will look for those
    judges who have an outstanding judicial record, who have the
    intellect, and who hopefully have a sense of what real-word -- -world
    folks are going through.
    I'll just give you one quick example. Senator McCain and I
    disagreed recently when the Supreme Court made it more difficult for a
    woman named Lilly Ledbetter to press her claim for pay discrimination.
    For years she had been getting paid less than a man had been paid for
    doing the exact same job. And when she brought a suit saying, "Equal
    pay for equal work," the judges said, "Well, you know, it's taken you
    too long to bring this lawsuit," even though she didn't know about it
    until fairly recently. We tried to overturn it in the Senate. I
    supported that effort to provide better guidance to the courts. John
    McCain opposed it.
    I think that it's important for judges to understand that if a
    woman is out there trying to raise a family, trying to support her
    family, and is being treated unfairly, then the -- the court has to
    stand up if nobody else will, and --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:11:25

    All right.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:11:25
    2 seconds

    -- and that's the kind of judge that I want.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:11:27

    Time's up.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:11:27
    1 minute

    Obviously, that law waived the statute of
    limitations, which you could have gone back 20 or 30 years. It was a
    trial lawyer's dream.
    Let me talk to you about an important aspect of this issue. We
    have to change the culture of America. Those of us who are proudly
    pro-life understand that. And it's got to be courage and compassion
    that we show to a young woman who's facing this terribly difficult
    decision.
    Senator Obama, as a member of the Illinois State Senate, voted in
    the Judiciary Committee against a law that would provide immediate
    medical attention to a child born as a failed abortion. He voted
    against that. And then, on the floor of the State Senate, as he did
    130 times as a state senator, he voted "present."
    Then there was another bill before the Senate Judiciary Committee
    in the state of Illinois, not that long ago, where he voted against a
    ban on partial-birth abortion, one of -- the late-term abortion --
    really one of the bad procedures, terrible. And then, on the floor of
    the -- of the Illinois State Senate, he voted "present."
    I don't know how you vote "present" on something like that. I
    don't know how you align yourself with the extreme aspect of the pro-
    abortion movement in America. And that's his record. And that's a
    matter of his record. And he'll say it has something to do with Roe
    v. Wade about the Illinois State Senate; it was clear-cut votes that
    Senator Obama voted, I think, in direct contradiction to the feelings
    and views of mainstream America.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:12:56
    1 second

    Response?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:12:57
    2 minutes

    Yeah, let -- let me respond to this.
    If -- if it sounds incredible that I would vote to withhold
    lifesaving treatment from an infant, that's because it's not true.
    The -- here are the facts. There was a bill that was put forward
    before the Illinois Senate that said you have to provide life-saving
    treatment and -- that would have helped to undermine Roe v. Wade.
    The fact is that there was already a law on the books in Illinois
    that required providing life-saving treatment, which is why not only
    myself, but pro-choice Republicans and Democrats voted against it.
    And the Illinois Medical Society, the organization of doctors in
    Illinois, voted against it. Their Hippocratic Oath would've required
    them to provide care, and there was already a law in the books.
    With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely
    supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, partial-birth or
    otherwise, as long as there's a exception for the mother's health and
    life. And this did not contain that exception. And I attempted, as
    many have in past, of including that so that it is Constitutional.
    And that was rejected. And that's why I voted "present," because I'm
    willing to support a ban on late-term abortions as long as we have
    that exception.
    Last point I want to make on the issue of abortion. This is an
    issue that -- look, it divides us, and in some ways, it may be
    difficult to reconcile the two views. But there surely is some common
    ground. When both those who believe in choice and those who are
    opposed to abortion can come together and say we should try to prevent
    unintended pregnancies by providing appropriate education to our
    youth, communicating that sexuality is sacred and that they should not
    be engaged in cavalier activity, and providing options for adoption
    and helping single mothers, if they want to choose to keep their baby.
    Those are all things that we put in the Democratic platform for
    the first time this year. And I think that's where we can find some
    common ground, because nobody is pro-abortion. I think -- (audio
    break) -- we should try to reduce these circumstances.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:15:16
    2 seconds

    Let's give Senator McCain just a short response
    and then --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:15:18
    49 seconds

    Just again -- just again the example of the
    eloquence of Senator Obama. He's -- health of the mother. You know,
    that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement, in America, to
    mean almost anything. That's -- that's the extreme pro-abortion
    position, quote, "health."
    But look, Cindy and I are adoptive parents. We know what a
    treasure and joy it is to have an adopted child in our lives. We'll
    do everything we can to approve adoption in this country. But that
    does not mean that we will cease to protect the rights of the unborn.
    Of course, we have to come together. Of course, we have to work
    together. And of course, it's vital that we do so and help these
    young women, who are facing such a difficult decision, with the
    compassion that we'll help them, with the adoptive services, but the
    courage to bring that child into this world. We'll help take care of
    them.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:16:07
    39 seconds

    Let's stop there, because I want to get in a
    question on education. And I'm afraid this is going to have to be our
    last question, gentlemen. The question is this.
    The U.S. spends more per capita than any other country on
    education. Yet by every international measurement in math and science
    competence, from kindergarten through the 12th grade, we trail most of
    the countries of the world.
    The implications of this are clearly obvious. Some even say it poses
    a threat to our national security. Do you feel that way? And what do
    you intend to do about it?
    The question to Senator Obama first.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:16:46
    2 minutes

    This probably has more to do with our economic
    future than anything. And that means it also has a national security
    implication, because there's never been a nation on earth that saw its
    economy decline and continue to maintain its primacy as a military
    power.
    So we've got to get our education system right. Now, typically
    what's happened is that there's been a debate between more money or
    reform. And I think we need both. In some cases, we are going to
    have to invest. Early childhood education, which closes the
    achievement gap so that every child is prepared for school, every
    dollar we invest in that we end up getting huge benefits with improved
    reading scores, reduced drop-out rates, reduced delinquency rates.
    I think it's going to be critically important for us to recruit a
    generation of new teachers, an army of new teachers, especially in
    math and science, give them higher pay, give them more professional
    development and support in exchange for higher standards and
    accountability.
    And I think it's important for us to make college affordable.
    Right now, I meet young people all across the country who either
    decided not to go to college or if they're going to college, they are
    taking on 20(,000 dollars), 30(,000 dollars), 50(,000 dollars),
    $60,000 worth of debt. And it's very difficult for them to go into
    some fields, like basic research and science for example, thinking to
    themselves that they're going to have a mortgage before they even buy
    a house.
    And that's why I have proposed a $4,000 tuition credit -- every
    student, every year -- in exchange for some form of community service,
    whether it's military service, whether it's Peace Corps, whether it's
    working in a community. If we do those things, then I believe that we
    can create a better school system.
    But there's one last ingredient that I just want to mention, and
    that's parents. We can't do it just in the schools. Parents are
    going to have to show more responsibility. They've got to turn off
    the TV set, put away the video games, and finally start instilling
    that thirst for knowledge that our students need.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:18:52
    1 second

    Senator McCain.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:18:53
    1 minute

    Well, it -- it's the civil rights issue of the 21st
    century. There's no doubt that we have achieved equal access to
    schools in America after a long and difficult and terrible struggle.
    But what is the advantage in a low-income area of sending a child to a
    failed school and that being your only choice? So choice and
    competition amongst schools is one of the key elements. It's already
    been proven in places like New Orleans and New York City and other
    places, where we have charter schools where we take good teachers and
    we reward them and promote them, and we find bad teachers another line
    of work.
    And we have to be able to give parents the same choice, frankly,
    that Senator Obama and Mrs. Obama had, and Cindy and I had, to send
    our kids to the school -- their kids to the school of their choice.
    Charter schools aren't the only answer, but they're providing
    competition. They are providing the kind of competitions that have
    upgraded both schools -- types of schools.
    Now, throwing money at the problem is not the answer. You will
    find that some of the worst school systems in America get the most
    money per student.
    So I believe that we need to reward these good teachers. We need
    to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to
    Teachers, where people, after having served in the military, can go
    right to teaching and not have to take these examinations, which -- or
    have the certification that some are -- required in some states.
    Look, we must improve education in this country. As far as
    college education is concerned, we need to make those students loans
    available. We need to give them a repayment schedule that they can
    meet. We need to have full student loan program for in-state tuition.
    And we certainly need to adjust the student loan eligibility to
    inflation.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:20:51
    4 seconds

    Do you think the federal government should play a
    larger role in the schools?

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:20:55
    1 second

    Well --

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:20:56
    1 second

    And I mean more federal money.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:20:57
    2 minutes

    Well, we have a tradition of local control of the
    schools, and that's a tradition that has served us well. But I do
    think that it is important for the federal government to step up and
    help local school districts do some of the things they need to do.
    Now, we tried to do this under President Bush. He put forward No
    Child Left Behind. Unfortunately, though, they left the money behind
    for No Child Left Behind. And local school districts end up having
    more of a burden, a bunch of unfunded mandates, the same kind of thing
    that happened with special education, where we did the right thing by
    saying every school should provide education to kids with special
    needs, but we never followed through on the promise of funding, and
    that left local school districts very cash-strapped.
    So what I want to do is focus on early childhood education, providing
    teachers higher salaries in exchange for more support.
    Senator McCain and I actually agree on two things that he just
    mentioned.
    Charter schools. I doubled the number of charter schools in
    Illinois, despite some reservations from teachers' unions. I think it
    is important for us to foster competition inside the public schools.
    And we also agree on the need for making sure that if we have bad
    teachers, that they are swiftly, after given an opportunity to prove
    themselves, if they can't hack it, then we need to move on because our
    kids have to have their best future.
    Where we disagree is on the idea that we can somehow give our
    vouchers -- give vouchers as a way of curing the problems in our
    education system.
    And I also have to disagree on Senator McCain's record when it
    comes to college accessibility and affordability. Recently, his key
    economic adviser was asked about why he didn't seem to have some
    specific programs to help young people go to college, and the response
    was, well, you know, we can't give money to every interest group that
    comes along. I don't think America's youth are interest groups, I
    think they're our future. And this is an example of where we are
    going to have to prioritize. We can't say we're going to do things
    and then not explain in concrete terms how we're going to pay for it.
    And if we're going to do some of the things you mentioned, like
    lowering loan rates or what have you, somebody's got to pay for it.
    It's not going to happen on its own.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:23:17
    1 second

    What about that, Senator?

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:23:18
    14 seconds

    Well, sure. I'm sure you're aware, Senator Obama,
    of the program in the Washington, D.C., school system, where vouchers
    are provided and there's a certain number -- I think it's a thousand
    and some and some 9,000 parents asked to be eligible for that --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:23:32

    Right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:23:32
    8 seconds

    -- because they wanted to have the same choice that
    you and I and Cindy and your wife have had --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:23:40
    1 second

    Right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:23:41
    2 minutes

    -- and that is because they wanted to choose the
    school that they thought was best for their children. And we all know
    the state of the Washington, D.C., school system. That was vouchers.
    That was vouchers, Senator Obama. And I'm -- and I -- and I'm frankly
    surprised you didn't pay more attention to that example.
    Now, as far as -- as the No Child Left Behind is concerned, it
    was a great first beginning, in my view. It had its flaws. It had
    its problems -- the first time we had looked at the issue of education
    in America from a nation-wide perspective. And we need to fix a lot
    of the problems. We need to sit down and re-authorize it.
    But again, spending more money isn't always the answer. I think
    the Head Start program is a great program. A lot of people, including
    me, said, look, it's not doing what it should do. By the third grade,
    many times children who were in Head Start program aren't any better
    off than the others. Let's reform it. Let's reform it and fund it.
    That was, of course, out of bounds by -- by the Democrats.
    We need to reform these programs. We need to have transparency.
    We need to have rewards. It's a system that cries out for
    accountability and transparency and the adequate funding.
    And I just said to you earlier, town hall meeting after town hall
    meeting, parents come with kids, children, precious children who have
    autism.
    Sarah Palin knows about that better than most. And we'll find --
    and we'll spend the money, research to find the cause of autism. And
    we'll care for these young children. And all Americans will open
    their wallets and their hearts to do so.
    But to have a situation, as you mentioned in our earlier
    comments, that the most expensive education in the world is in the
    United States of America also means that it cries out for reform as
    well. And I will support those reforms. And I will fund the ones
    that are reform.
    But I'm not going to continue to throw money at a problem. And
    I've got to tell you that vouchers, where they are requested and where
    they are agreed to, are a good and workable system. And it's been
    proven.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:25:42
    20 seconds

    I'll just make a quick comment about vouchers in
    D.C.
    Senator McCain is absolutely right that the D.
    C. school system is
    in terrible shape, and it has been for a very long time. And we've
    got a wonderful new superintendent there, who's working very hard with
    the young mayor there, to try to initiate --

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:26:02
    1 second

    Who supports vouchers --

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:26:03
    3 seconds

    -- who -- who actually supports charters.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:26:06
    2 seconds

    She supports vouchers also.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:26:08
    39 seconds

    But the -- but -- but here's the thing, is that even
    if Senator McCain were to say that vouchers were the way to go, I
    disagree with him on this, because the data doesn't show that it
    actually solves the problem.
    The centerpiece of Senator McCain's education policy is to
    increase the voucher program in D.C. by 2,000 slots.
    That leaves all of you who live in the other 50 states without an
    education reform policy from Senator McCain. So if we are going to be
    serious about this issue, we've got to have a president who is going
    to tackle it head-on, and that's what I intend to do as president.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:26:47
    1 second

    All right.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:26:48
    6 seconds

    Because there's not enough vouchers, therefore, we
    shouldn't do it, even though it's working. I got it. (Scattered
    laughter.)

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:26:54
    24 seconds

    All right.
    Gentlemen, we have come to the close. Before I ask both of you
    for your closing statements tonight, I'd like to invite our viewers
    and listeners to go to mydebates.org, where you will find this
    evening's debate and the three that preceded tonight's debate.
    Now for the final statements, by a coin toss, Senator McCain goes
    first.

  • SEN. MCCAIN

    At 01:27:18
    1 minute

    Well, thank you again, Bob, and thanks to Hofstra,
    and it's great to be with you again. I think we've had a very healthy
    discussion.
    My friends, as I said in my opening remarks, these are very
    difficult times and challenges for America, and they were graphically
    demonstrated again today. America needs a new direction; we cannot be
    satisfied with what we've been doing for the last eight years.
    I have a record of reform and taking on my party, the other
    party, the special interests. Whether it be on HMO patients' bill of
    rights or trying to clean up the campaign finance system in this
    country or whether it be establishment of a 9/11 commission, I have a
    long record of it, and I've been a careful steward of your tax
    dollars.
    We have to make health care affordable and available. We have to make
    a quality education there for all of our citizens, not just a
    privileged few. We have to stop the spending. We have to stop the
    spending which has mortgaged your children's futures.
    All of these things and all the promises and commitments that
    Senator Obama and I made you to -- made to you tonight will base --
    will be based on whether you can trust us or not to be careful
    stewards of your tax dollar, to make sure America is safe and secure
    and prosperous, make sure we reform the institutions of government.
    That's why I've asked you to -- not only to examine my record, but my
    proposals for the future of this country.
    I've spent my entire life in the service of this nation and
    putting my country first. There's a long line of McCains that have
    served our country for a long time, in war and in peace. It's been
    the great honor of my life, and I've been proud to serve. And I hope
    you'll give me an opportunity to serve again. I'd be honored and
    humbled.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:29:12
    2 seconds

    Senator.

  • SEN. OBAMA

    At 01:29:14
    1 minute

    Well, I want to thank Senator McCain, and -- and Bob
    for moderating.
    I think we all know America is going through tough times right
    now. The policies of the last eight years and -- and Washington's
    unwillingness to tackle the tough problems for decades has left us in
    the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. And that's why
    the biggest risk we could take right now is to adopt the same failed
    policies and the same failed politics that we've seen over the last
    eight years and somehow expect a different result. We need
    fundamental change in this country, and that's what I'd like to bring.
    You know, over the last 20 months, you've invited me into your
    homes, you've shared your stories with me, and you've confirmed once
    again the fundamental decency and generosity of the American people.
    And that's why I'm sure that our brighter days are still ahead.
    But we're going to have to invest in the American people again,
    in tax cuts for the middle class, in health care for all Americans and
    college for every young person who wants to go, in businesses that can
    create the new energy economy of the future, in policies that will
    lift wages and will grow our middle class.
    These are the policies I've fought for my entire career, and
    these are the policies I want to bring to the White House.
    But it's not going to be easy. It's not going to be quick. It's
    going to be requiring all of us -- Democrats, Republicans,
    independents -- to come together and to renew a spirit of sacrifice
    and service and responsibility. I'm absolutely convinced we can do
    it. I would ask for your vote. And I promise you that if you give me
    the extraordinary honor of serving as your president, I will work
    every single day tirelessly on your behalf and on the behalf of the
    future of our children.
    Thank you very much.

  • MR. SCHIEFFER

    At 01:31:08
    1 minute

    Senator Obama, Senator McCain, thank you very
    much. (Scattered applause.) This concludes the final debate. I'm
    Bob Schieffer of CBS News, and I will leave you tonight with what my
    mother always said. Go vote now. It'll make you feel big and strong.
    Good night, everyone.