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Pennsylvania Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate - Apr 16, 2008

Transcript Text

MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

So we're going to begin with opening statements, and
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

we had a flip of the coin, and the brief opening statement first from
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA
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Thank you very much, Charlie and George, and thanks
SEN. OBAMA
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to all in the audience and who are out there.
SEN. OBAMA
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You know, Senator Clinton and I have been running for 15 months
SEN. OBAMA
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now. We've been traveling across Pennsylvania for at least the last
SEN. OBAMA
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five weeks. And everywhere I go, what I've been struck by is the core
SEN. OBAMA
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decency and generosity of people of Pennsylvania and the American
SEN. OBAMA
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people.
SEN. OBAMA
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But what I've also been struck by is the frustration. You know,
SEN. OBAMA
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I met a gentleman in Latrobe who had lost his job and was trying to
SEN. OBAMA
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figure out how he could find the gas money to travel to find a job.
SEN. OBAMA
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And that story, I think, is typical of what we're seeing all across
SEN. OBAMA
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the country. People are frustrated not only with jobs moving and
SEN. OBAMA
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incomes being flat, health care being too expensive, but also that
SEN. OBAMA
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special interests have come to dominate Washington, and they don't
SEN. OBAMA
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feel like they're being listened to.
SEN. OBAMA
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I think this election offers us an opportunity to change that, to
SEN. OBAMA
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transform that frustration into something more hopeful, to bring about
SEN. OBAMA
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real change. And I'm running for president to ensure that the
SEN. OBAMA
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American people are heard in the White House. That's my commitment,
SEN. OBAMA
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if the people of Pennsylvania vote for me and the people of America
SEN. OBAMA
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vote for me.
MR. GIBSON
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Senator Clinton?
SEN. CLINTON
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Well, we meet tonight here in Philadelphia where
SEN. CLINTON
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our founders determined that the promise of America would be available
SEN. CLINTON
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for future generations if we were willing and able to make it happen.
SEN. CLINTON
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You know, I am here, as is Senator Obama. Neither of us were
SEN. CLINTON
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included in those original documents. But in a very real sense, we
SEN. CLINTON
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demonstrate that that promise of America is alive and well. But it is
SEN. CLINTON
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at risk.
SEN. CLINTON
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There is a lot of concern across Pennsylvania and America.
SEN. CLINTON
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People do feel as though their government is not solving problems,
SEN. CLINTON
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that it is not standing up for them, that we've got to do more to
SEN. CLINTON
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actually provide the good jobs that will support families, deal once
SEN. CLINTON
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and for all with health care for every American, make our education
SEN. CLINTON
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system the true passport to opportunity, restore our standing in the
SEN. CLINTON
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world.
SEN. CLINTON
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I am running for president because I know we can meet the
SEN. CLINTON
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challenges of today, that we can continue to fulfill that promise that
SEN. CLINTON
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was offered to successive generations of Americans starting here so
SEN. CLINTON
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long ago.
SEN. CLINTON
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And I hope that this evening, voters in Pennsylvania and others
SEN. CLINTON
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across the country will listen carefully to what we have to say, will
SEN. CLINTON
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look at our records, will look at the plans we have.
SEN. CLINTON
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And I offer those on my website, hillaryclinton.com, for more
SEN. CLINTON
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detail. Because I believe with all my heart that we the people can
SEN. CLINTON
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have the kind of future that our children and grandchildren so richly
SEN. CLINTON
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deserve.
MR. GIBSON
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Thank you both.
MR. GIBSON
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And with that as preamble, we will take a very short commercial
MR. GIBSON
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break. And we will come back and begin 90 minutes of debate. The
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Pennsylvania Democratic Debate continues after just one minute.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

(Announcements.)
MR. GIBSON
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We'll begin each of the segments of this debate with
MR. GIBSON
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short quotes from the Constitution that are apropos to what we're
MR. GIBSON
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going to talk about. And it is good to be back here at the National
MR. GIBSON
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Constitution Center.
MR. GIBSON
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So let's start. And I'm going to give a general question, before
MR. GIBSON
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we get to the issues, to both of you on politics.
MR. GIBSON
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There have already been many votes in many states, and you have
MR. GIBSON
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each, as you analyze the vote, appealed disproportionately to
MR. GIBSON
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different constituencies in the party, and that dismays many in the
MR. GIBSON
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party. Governor Cuomo, an elder statesman in your party, has come
MR. GIBSON
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forward with a suggestion. He has said, look, fight it to the end.
MR. GIBSON
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Let every vote be counted. You contest every delegate. Go at each
MR. GIBSON
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other to the -- right till the end. Don't give an inch to one
MR. GIBSON
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another. But pledge now that whichever one of you wins this contest,
MR. GIBSON
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you'll take the other as your running mate, and that the other will
MR. GIBSON
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agree if they lose, to take second place on the ticket.
MR. GIBSON
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So I put the question to both of you: Why not?
MR. GIBSON
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(Pause, laughter.)
MR. GIBSON
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Don't all speak at once. (Laughter.)
SEN. OBAMA
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Well, I'm happy to start with a response. Look,
SEN. OBAMA
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this has been an extraordinary journey that both Senator Clinton and I
SEN. OBAMA
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have been on and a number of other able candidates. And I think very
SEN. OBAMA
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highly of Senator Clinton's record. But as I've said before, I think
SEN. OBAMA
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it's premature at this point for us to talk about who vice
SEN. OBAMA
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presidential candidates will be because we're still trying to
SEN. OBAMA
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determine who the nominee will be.
SEN. OBAMA
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But one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that come August, when
SEN. OBAMA
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we're in Denver, the Democratic Party will come together, because we
SEN. OBAMA
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have no choice if we want to deliver on the promises that not only
SEN. OBAMA
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we've made but the founders made. We are seeing peoples' economic
SEN. OBAMA
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status slipping further and further behind. We've seen people who
SEN. OBAMA
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have not only lost their jobs but now are at risk of losing their
SEN. OBAMA
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homes.
SEN. OBAMA
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We have a sharp contrast in terms of economic policies. John McCain
SEN. OBAMA
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wants to continue four more years of George Bush policies and, on the
SEN. OBAMA
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foreign policy front, wants to continue George Bush's foreign policy.
SEN. OBAMA
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So I'm confident that both Senator Clinton's supporters and
SEN. OBAMA
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Senator Obama's supporters will be supporting the Democratic nominee
SEN. OBAMA
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when we start engaging in that general election.
MR. GIBSON
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But Senator Clinton, Governor Cuomo made that
MR. GIBSON
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suggestion because he's not so sure. And other Democrats are not so
MR. GIBSON
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sure.
MR. GIBSON
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Just to quote from the Constitution again, "In every case,"
MR. GIBSON
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Article Two, Section One, "after the choice of the president, the
MR. GIBSON
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person having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be
MR. GIBSON
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the vice president."
MR. GIBSON
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If it was good enough in colonial times, why not in these times.
SEN. CLINTON
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Well, Charlie, I'm going to do everything I
SEN. CLINTON
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possibly can to make sure that one of us takes the oath of office next
SEN. CLINTON
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January. I think that has to be the overriding goal, whatever we have
SEN. CLINTON
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to do.
SEN. CLINTON
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Obviously we are still contesting to determine who will be the
SEN. CLINTON
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nominee. But once that is resolved, I think it is absolutely
SEN. CLINTON
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imperative that our entire party close ranks, that we become unified.
SEN. CLINTON
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I will do everything to make sure that the people who supported
SEN. CLINTON
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me support our nominee.
SEN. CLINTON
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I will go anywhere in the country to make the case. And I know that
SEN. CLINTON
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Barack feels the same way, because both of us have spent 15 months
SEN. CLINTON
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traveling our country. I have seen the damage of the Bush years.
SEN. CLINTON
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I've seen the extraordinary pain that people have suffered from
SEN. CLINTON
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because of the failed policies; you know, those who have held my hands
SEN. CLINTON
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who have lost sons or daughters in Iraq, and those who have lost sons
SEN. CLINTON
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or daughters because they didn't have health insurance.
SEN. CLINTON
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And so, regardless of the differences there may be between us,
SEN. CLINTON
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and they are differences, they pale in comparison to the differences
SEN. CLINTON
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between us and Senator McCain.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

So we will certainly do whatever is necessary to make sure that a
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Democrat is in the White House next January.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

All right. I will let this go. I don't think
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Governor Cuomo has any takers yet.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Let me start with a question to you, Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Yes.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Talking to a closed-door fundraiser in San Francisco
MR. GIBSON
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10 days ago, you got talking in California about small-town
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Pennsylvanians who have had tough economic times in recent years. And
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

you said they get bitter, and they cling to guns or they cling to
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

their religion or they cling to antipathy toward people who are not
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

like them.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Now, you've said you misspoke; you said you mangled what it was you
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

wanted to say. But we've talked to a lot of voters. Do you
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

understand that some people in this state find that patronizing and
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

think that you said actually what you meant?
SEN. OBAMA
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Well, I think there's no doubt that I can see how
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

people were offended. It's not the first time that I've made, you
SEN. OBAMA
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know, a statement that was mangled up. It's not going to be the last.
SEN. OBAMA
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But let me be very clear about what I meant, because it's
SEN. OBAMA
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something that I've said in public, it's something that I've said in
SEN. OBAMA
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television, which is that people are going through very difficult
SEN. OBAMA
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times right now and we are seeing it all across the country. And that
SEN. OBAMA
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was true even before the current economic hardships that are stemming
SEN. OBAMA
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from the housing crisis. This is the first economic expansion that we
SEN. OBAMA
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just completed in which ordinary people's incomes actually went down,
SEN. OBAMA
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when adjusted for inflation, at the same time as their costs of
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

everything from health care to gas at the pump have skyrocketed.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And so the point I was making was that when people feel like
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Washington's not listening to them, when they're promised year after
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year, decade after decade, that their economic situation is going to
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change, and it doesn't, then politically they end up focusing on those
SEN. OBAMA
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things that are constant, like religion.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

They end up feeling "This is a place where I can find some refugee.
SEN. OBAMA
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This is something that I can count on." They end up being much more
SEN. OBAMA
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concerned about votes around things like guns, where traditions have
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been passed on from generation to generation. And those are
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incredibly important to them.
SEN. OBAMA
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And yes, what is also true is that wedge issues, hot-button
SEN. OBAMA
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issues, end up taking prominence in our -- in our politics. And part
SEN. OBAMA
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of the problem is that when those issues are exploited, we never get
SEN. OBAMA
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to solve the issues that people really have to get some relief on,
SEN. OBAMA
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whether it's health care or education or jobs.
SEN. OBAMA
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So this i something that I've said before. It is something that
SEN. OBAMA
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I will repeat again. And yes, people are frustrated and angry about
SEN. OBAMA
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it, but what we're seeing in this election is the opportunity to break
SEN. OBAMA
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through that frustration. And that's what our campaign has been
SEN. OBAMA
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about, saying that if the American people get involved and engaged,
SEN. OBAMA
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then we are going to start seeing change. And that's what makes this
SEN. OBAMA
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election unique.
MR. GIBSON
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Senator Clinton?
SEN. CLINTON
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Well, I am the granddaughter of a factory worker
SEN. CLINTON
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from Scranton who went to work in the Scranton lace mills when he was
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11 years old, worked his entire life there, mostly six-day weeks.
SEN. CLINTON
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He was also very active in the Court Street Methodist Church.
SEN. CLINTON
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And he raised three sons and was very proud that he sent all of them
SEN. CLINTON
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to college.
SEN. CLINTON
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I don't believe that my grandfather or my father, or the many
SEN. CLINTON
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people whom I have had the privilege of knowing and meeting across
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Pennsylvania over many years, cling to religion when Washington is not
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

listening to them. I think that is a fundamental, sort of,
SEN. CLINTON
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misunderstanding of the role of religion and faith in times that are
SEN. CLINTON
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good and times that are bad.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

And I similarly don't think that people cling to their
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

traditions, like hunting and guns, either when they are frustrated
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

with the government. I just don't believe that's how people live
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

their lives.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Now, that doesn't mean that people are not frustrated with the
SEN. CLINTON
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government. We have every reason to be frustrated, particularly with
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this administration.
SEN. CLINTON
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But I can see why people would be taken aback and offended by the
SEN. CLINTON
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remarks. And I think what's important is that we all listen to one
SEN. CLINTON
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another and we respect one another and we understand the different
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decisions that people make in life, because we're a stronger country
SEN. CLINTON
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because of that.
SEN. CLINTON
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And certainly the weeks that I have spent criss-crossing
SEN. CLINTON
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Pennsylvania, from Erie to Lancaster County, and meeting a lot of
SEN. CLINTON
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wonderful people, says to me that despite whatever frustration anyone
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

has with our government, people are resilient, they are positive, and
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

they're ready for leadership again that will summon them to something
SEN. CLINTON
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greater than themselves, and that we will deliver on that if given a
SEN. CLINTON
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chance.
MR. GIBSON
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We're going to have some other questions on the same
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

theme, so you'll be able to get back that.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Let me pick up on this. When these comments
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

from Senator Obama broke on Friday, Senator McCain's campaign
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

immediately said that it was going to be a killer issue in November.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, when Bill Richardson called you to say he was
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

endorsing Barack Obama, you told him that Senator Obama can't win.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
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I'm not going to ask you about that conversation. I know you don't
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

want to talk about it. But a simple yes-or-no question: Do you think
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Obama can beat John McCain or not?
SEN. CLINTON
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Well, I think we have to beat John McCain, and I
SEN. CLINTON
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have every reason to believe we're going to have a Democratic
SEN. CLINTON
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president and it's going to be either Barack or me. And we're going
SEN. CLINTON
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to make that happen.
SEN. CLINTON
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And what is important is that we understand exactly the
SEN. CLINTON
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challenges facing us in order to defeat Senator McCain.
SEN. CLINTON
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He will be a formidable candidate. There isn't any doubt about
SEN. CLINTON
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that. He has a great American story to tell. He's a man who has
SEN. CLINTON
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served our country with distinction over many years, but he has the
SEN. CLINTON
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wrong ideas about America. And those ideas will be tested in the
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cauldron of this campaign.
SEN. CLINTON
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But I also know, having now gone through 16 years of being on the
SEN. CLINTON
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receiving end of what the Republican Party dishes out, how important
SEN. CLINTON
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it is that we try to go after every single vote everywhere we possibly
SEN. CLINTON
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can to get to those electoral votes that we're going to need to have
SEN. CLINTON
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the next president elected.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
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But the question is, do you think Senator
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Obama can do that? Can he win?
SEN. CLINTON
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Yes. Yes. Yes.
SEN. CLINTON
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Now, I think that I can do a better job. (Laughter.) I mean,
SEN. CLINTON
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obviously, that's why I'm here. I think I am better able and better
SEN. CLINTON
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prepared in large measure because of what I've been through and the
SEN. CLINTON
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work that I've done and the results that I've produced for people and
SEN. CLINTON
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the coalition that I have put together in this campaign, that Charlie
SEN. CLINTON
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referred to earlier.
SEN. CLINTON
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Obviously, I believe I would be the best president, or I would
SEN. CLINTON
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not still be here, standing on this stage, and I believe I'm the
SEN. CLINTON
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better and stronger candidate against Senator McCain, to go toe to toe
SEN. CLINTON
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with him on national security and on how we turn the economy around.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Obama, do yo think Senator Clinton
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

can win?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Absolutely, and I've said so before. But I too
SEN. OBAMA
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think that I'm the better candidate. (Laughter.) And I don't think
SEN. OBAMA
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that surprises anybody.
SEN. OBAMA
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Let me just pick up on a couple of things that Senator Clinton
SEN. OBAMA
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said, though, because during the course of the last few days, you
SEN. OBAMA
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know, she's said I'm elitist, out of touch, condescending. Let me be
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

absolutely clear. It would be pretty hard for me to be condescending
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

towards people of faith, since I'm a person of faith and have done
SEN. OBAMA
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more than most other campaigns in reaching out specifically to people
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

of faith, and have written about how Democrats make an error when they
SEN. OBAMA
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don't show up and speak directly to people's faith, because I think we
SEN. OBAMA
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can get those votes, and I have in the past.
SEN. OBAMA
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The same is true with respect to gun owners. I have large
SEN. OBAMA
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numbers of sportsmen and gun owners in my home state, and they have
SEN. OBAMA
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supported me precisely because I have listened to them, and I know
SEN. OBAMA
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them well.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

So the problem that we have in our politics, which is fairly
SEN. OBAMA
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typical, is that you take one person's statement, if it's not properly
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

phrased, and you just beat it to death. And that's what Senator
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Clinton's been doing over the last four days. And I understand that.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

That's politics, and I expect to have to go through this -- this
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

process.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

But I do think it's important to recognize that it's not helping
SEN. OBAMA
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that person who's sitting at the kitchen table who is trying to figure
SEN. OBAMA
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out how to pay the bills at the end of the month.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And Senator Clinton's right. She has gone through this. You
SEN. OBAMA
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know, I recall when back in 1992, when she made a statement about how,
SEN. OBAMA
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what do you expect, should I be at home baking cookies?
SEN. OBAMA
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And people attacked her for being elitist and this and that. And
SEN. OBAMA
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I remember watching that on TV and saying, well, that's not who she
SEN. OBAMA
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is; that's not what she believes; that's not what she meant. And I'm
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

sure that that's how she felt as well.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

But the problem is that that's the kind of politics that we've
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

been accustomed to. And I think Senator Clinton learned the wrong
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

lesson from it, because she's adopting the same tactics.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

What the American people want are not distractions. They want to
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

figure out, how are we actually going to deliver on health care; how
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

are we going to deliver better jobs for people; how are we going to
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

improve their incomes; how are we going to send them to college?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

That's what we have to focus on. And yes, they are in part
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

frustrated and angry, because this is what passes for our politics in
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

terms -- instead of figuring out, how do we build coalitions to
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

actually move things forward?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, could I --
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, before I move on, do you want to do
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

a brief response?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Oh, I do.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, first of all, I want to be very clear. My comments were
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

about your remarks.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

And I think that's important, because it wasn't just me responding to
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

them, it was people who heard them, people who felt as though they
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

were aimed at their values, their quality of life, the decisions that
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

they have made.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Now, obviously, what we have to do as Democrats is make sure we
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

get enough votes to win in November. And as George just said, you
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

know, the Republicans, who are pretty shrewd about what it takes to
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

win, certainly did jump on the comments.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

But what's important here is what we each stand for and what our
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

records are and what we have done over the course of our lives to try
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

to improve the circumstances of those who deserve to live up to their
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

own potential, to make the decisions that are right for them and their
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

families. And I think year after year for now 35 years, I have a
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

proven record of results.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

And what I'm taking into this campaign is my passion for
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

empowering people, for giving people the feeling that they can make a
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

better future for themselves. And I think it's important that that
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

starts from a base of respect and connection in order to be able to
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

get people to follow you and believe that you will lead them in the
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

better direction.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama, since you last debated, you made a
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

significant speech in this building on the subject of race and your
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

former pastor, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And you said subsequent
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

to giving that speech that you never heard him say from the pulpit the
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

kinds of things that so have offended people.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

But more than a year ago, you rescinded the invitation to him to
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

attend the event when you announced your candidacy. He was to give
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

the invocation. And according to the reverend, I'm quoting him, you
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

said to him, "You can get kind of rough in sermons. So what we've
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

decided is that it's best for you not to be out there in public." I'm
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

quoting the reverend. But what did you know about his statements that
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

caused you to rescind that invitation?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well --
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And if you knew he got rough in sermons, why did it
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

take you more than a year to publicly disassociate yourself from his
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

remarks?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, understand that I hadn't seen the remarks that
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

ended up playing on youTube repeatedly. This was a set of remarks
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

that had been quoted in Rolling Stone Magazine and we looked at them
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

and I thought that they would be a distraction since he had just put
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

them forward.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

But, Charlie, I've discussed this extensively. Reverend Wright
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

is somebody who made controversial statements but they were not of the
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

sort that we saw that offended so many Americans. And that's why I
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

specifically said that these comments were objectionable; they're not
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

comments that I believe in.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And I disassociated myself with them.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

What I also said was, the church and the body of Reverend
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Wright's work, over the course of 30 years, were not represented in
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

those snippets that were shown on television, and that the church has
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

done outstanding work in ministries on HIV/AIDS, prison ministries,
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

providing people with the kind of comfort that we expect in our
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

churches.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And so what I think I tried to do in the speech here at the
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Constitution Center was speak to a broader context, which is that
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

there is anger in the African American community that sometimes gets
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

expressed, whether in the barbershop or in the church.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

That's true not just in the African American community. That's
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

true in other communities as well. But what we have the opportunity
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

to do is to move beyond it. And that's what I think my candidacy
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

represents.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And Senator Clinton mentioned earlier that we have to connect
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

with people. That's exactly what we've done throughout this campaign.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

The reason we've attracted new people into the process, the
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

reason we've generated so much excitement, the reason that we have
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

been so successful in so many states across the country, bridging
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

racial lines, bridging some of the old divisions, is because people
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

recognize that unless we do, then we're not going to be able to
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

deliver on the promises that people hear every 4 years, every 8 years,
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

every 12 years.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And it's my job in this campaign to try to move beyond some of those
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

divisions, because when we are unified, there is nothing that we
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

cannot tackle.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, let me -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, let me follow up, and let me add to that. You have
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

said that he would not have been my pastor, and you said that you have
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

to speak out against those kinds of remarks, and implicitly by getting
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

up and moving, and I presume you mean out of the church.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

There are 8,000 members of Senator Obama's church. And we have
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

heard the inflammatory remarks of Reverend Wright, but so too have we
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

heard testament to many great things that he did. Do you honestly
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

believe that 8,000 people should have gotten up and walked out of that
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

church?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

I was asked a personal question, Charlie, and I
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

gave a personal answer. Obviously, one's choice of church and pastor
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

is rooted in what one believes is what you're seeking in church and
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

what kind of, you know, fellowship you find in church. But I have to
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

say that, you know, for Pastor Wright to have given his first sermon
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

after 9/11 and to have blamed the United States for the attack, which
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

happened in my city of New York, would have been intolerable for me.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

And therefore I would have not been able to stay in the church, and
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

maybe it's, you know, just, again, a personal reflection that
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

regardless of whatever good is going on -- and I have no reason to
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

doubt that a lot of good things were happening in that church -- you
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

get to choose your pastor. You don't choose your family, but you get
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

to choose your pastor. And when asked a direct question, I said I
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

would not have stayed in the church.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, let me just respond to -- to two things.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Absolutely many of these remarks were objectionable. I've already
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

said that I didn't hear them, because I wasn't in church that day. I
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

didn't learn about those statements until much later.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

But --
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

But you did rescind the invitation to him --
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

But that was on -- that was on something entirely
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

different, Charlie. That -- that was on a different statement. And I
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

think that what Senator Clinton referred to was extremely offensive,
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

to me and a lot of people.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

But what I should also point out is that Senator Clinton's former
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

pastor, I think, publicly talked about how Reverend Wright was being
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

caricatured and that in fact this is somebody who had maintained an
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

extraordinary ministry for many years.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And so there are two important points: Number one, I wasn't aware of
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

all these statements, and I can understand how people would take
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

offense; but number two, the church is a community that extends beyond
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

the pastor and that church has done outstanding work for many, many
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

years.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

The third point I guess I would make is once again that unless we
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

can bridge some of these divides we're not going to solve problems in
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

this country. And what my entire body of work over the last 20 years
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

has been devoted to is getting blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians,
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Native Americans, young, old to work together, starting when I was a
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

community organizer. And my own life embodies that diversity. That's
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

what America's about and that's what this campaign has been about.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator, two questions. Number one, do you
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

think Reverend Wright loves America as much as you do? And number
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

two, if you get the nomination, what will you do when those sermons
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

are played on television again and again and again?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

You know, George, look, if it's not this, then it
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

would be something else. I promise you, if Senator Clinton got the
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

nomination, there will be a whole bunch of video clips about other
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

things. In a general election, we know that there are going to be all
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

kinds of attacks launched and leveled. There have been quite a few
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

leveled in this primary campaign.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And I have confidence in the American people that when you talk
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

to the American people honestly and directly about what I believe in,
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

what my plans are on health care, on energy, when they see my track
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

record of the work that I've done on behalf of people who really need
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

help, I have absolute confidence that they can rally behind my
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

campaign.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And, you know, the notion that somehow that the American people
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

are going to be distracted once again by comments not made by me but
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

by somebody who is associated with me, that I have disowned, I think
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

doesn't give the American people enough credit.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

You've disowned him?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

The comments, comments that I've disowned. Then
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

that is not something that I think --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

But you do believe he's as patriotic as you
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

are?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

This is somebody who's a former Marine. And so I
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

have -- I believe that he loves this country, but I also believe that
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

he's somebody who, because of the experiences he's had over the course
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

of a lifetime, is also angry about the injustices that he's seen.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

I'm getting a little out of balance here. Do you
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

want to take a few seconds, or do you want to go to the next question?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, I think, in addition to the questions about
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Reverend Wright and what he said and when he said it, and for whatever
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

reason he might have said these things, there were so many different
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

variations on the explanations that we heard. And it is something
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

that I think deserves further exploration, because clearly what we've
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

got to figure out is how we're going to bring people together in a way
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

that overcomes the anger, overcomes the divisiveness and whatever
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

bitterness there may be out there.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

It is clear that, as leaders, we have a choice who we associate
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

with and who we apparently give some kind of seal of approval to. And
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

I think that it wasn't only the specific remarks, but some of the
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

relationships with Reverend Farrakhan, with giving the church bulletin
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

over to the leader of Hamas to put a message in. You know, these are
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

problems, and they raise questions in people's minds.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

And so this is a legitimate area, as everything is when we run
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

for office, for people to be exploring and trying to find answers.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, we also did a poll today,
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

and there are also questions about you raised in this poll. About six
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

in 10 voters that we talked to say they don't believe you're honest
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

and trustworthy. And we also asked a lot of Pennsylvania voters for
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

questions they had. A lot of them raised this honesty issue and your
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

comments about being under sniper fire in Bosnia.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Here's Tom Rooney from Pittsburgh.
Q
At 00:00

Senator, I was in your court until a couple of weeks ago.
How do you reconcile the campaign of credibility that you have when
you've made those comments about what happened getting off the plane
in Bosnia, which totally misrepresented what really happened on that
day? You really lost my vote. And what can you tell me to get that
vote back?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, Tom, I can tell you that I may be a lot of
things, but I'm not dumb. And I wrote about going to Bosnia in my
book in 2004. I laid it all out there. And you're right. On a
couple of occasions in the last weeks I just said some things that
weren't in keeping with what I knew to be the case and what I had
written about in my book. And, you know, I'm embarrassed by it. I
have apologized for it. I've said it was a mistake. And it is, I
hope, something that you can look over, because clearly I am proud
that I went to Bosnia. It was a war zone.
General Wesley Clark is here in the audience with me as one of my
major supporters. He and I were talking about it before I came out.
You know, our soldiers were there to try to police and keep the peace
in a very dangerous area. They were totally in battle gear. There
were concerns about the potential dangers. The former president of
Bosnia has said that he was worried about the safety of the situation.
So I know that it is something that some people have said, "Wait
a minute. What happened here?" But I have talked about this and
written about it. And then, unfortunately, on a few occasions I was
not as accurate as I have been in the past.
But I know too that, you know, being able to rely on my
experience of having gone to Bosnia, gone to more than 80 countries,
having represented the United States in so many different settings
gives me a tremendous advantage going into this campaign, particularly
against Senator McCain.
So I will either try to get more sleep, Tom, or, you know, have
somebody who, you know, is there as a reminder to me. You know, you
can go back for the past 15 months. We both have said things that,
you know, turned out not to be accurate. You know, that happens when
you're talking as much as we have talked.
But you know, I'm very sorry that I said it. And I have said
that, you know, it just didn't jibe with what I had written about and
knew to be the truth.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Obama, your campaign has sent out a
cascade of e-mails, just about every day, questioning Senator
Clinton's credibility. And you yourself have said she hasn't been
fully truthful about what she would do as president.
Do you believe that Senator Clinton has been fully truthful about
her past?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, look, I think that Senator Clinton has a
strong record to run on. She wouldn't be here if she didn't. And you
know, I haven't commented on the issue of Bosnia. You know, I --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Your campaign has.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Of course, but --
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

(Laughs.)
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Because we're asked about it.
But look, the fact of the matter is, is that both of us are
working as hard as we can to make sure that we're delivering a message
to the American people about what we would do as president.
Sometimes that message is going to be imperfectly delivered, because
we are recorded every minute of every day. And I think Senator
Clinton deserves, you know, the right to make some errors once in a
while. I'm -- obviously, I make some as well.
I think what's important is to make sure that we don't get so
obsessed with gaffes that we lose sight of the fact that this is a
defining moment in our history. We are going to be tackling some of
the biggest issues that any president has dealt with in the last 40
years. Our economy is teetering not just on the edge of recession,
but potentially worse. Our foreign policy is in a shambles. We are
involved in two wars. People's incomes have not gone up, and their
costs have. And we're seeing greater income inequality now than any
time since the 1920s.
In those circumstances, for us to be obsessed with this -- these
kinds of errors I think is a mistake. And that's not what our
campaign has been about.
What our campaign has been about is offering some specific solutions
to how we move these issues forward and identifying the need to change
the culture in Washington, which we haven't talked at all about, but
that has blocked real reform decade after decade after decade. That,
I think, is the job of the next president of the United States.
That's what I intend to do. That's why I'm running.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And Senator Obama, I want to do one more question,
which goes to the basic issue of electability. And it is a question
raised by a voter in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, a woman by the name of
Nash McCabe. Take a look.
NASH MCCABE (Latrobe, Pennsylvania): (From videotape.) Senator
Obama, I have a question, and I want to know if you believe in the
American flag. I am not questioning your patriotism, but all our
servicemen, policemen and EMS wear the flag. I want to know why you
don't.
Just to add to that, I noticed you put one on
yesterday. But -- you've talked about this before, but it comes up
again and again when we talk to voters. And as you may know, it is
all over the Internet. And it's something of a theme that Senators
Clinton and McCain's advisers agree could give you a major
vulnerability if you're the candidate in November. How do you
convince Democrats that this would not be a vulnerability?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, look, I revere the American flag, and I would
not be running for president if I did not revere this country. This
is -- I would not be standing here if it wasn't for this country.
And I've said this -- again, there's no other country in which my
story is even possible; somebody who was born to a teenage mom, raised
by a single mother and grandparents from small towns in Kansas, you
know, who was able to get an education and rise to the point where I
can run for the highest office in the land. I could not help but love
this country for all that it's given me.
And so what I've tried to do is to show my patriotism by how I
treat veterans when I'm working in the Senate Veterans Affairs
Committee; by making sure that I'm speaking forcefully about how we
need to bring this war in Iraq to a close, because I think it is not
serving our national security well and it's not serving our military
families and our troops well; talking about how we need to restore a
sense of economic fairness to this country because that's what this
country has always been about, is providing upward mobility and
ladders to opportunity for all Americans. That's what I love about
this country. And so I will continue to fight for those issues.
And I am absolutely confident that during the general election
that when I'm in a debate with John McCain, people are not going to be
questioning my patriotism, they are going to be questioning how can
you make people's lives a little bit better.
And let me just make one last point on this issue of the flag
pin. As you noted, I wore one yesterday when a veteran handed it to
me, who himself was disabled and works on behalf of disabled veterans.
I have never said that I don't wear flag pins or refuse to wear flag
pins. This is the kind of manufactured issue that our politics has
become obsessed with and, once again, distracts us from what should be
my job when I'm commander in chief, which is going to be figuring out
how we get our troops out of Iraq and how we actually make our economy
better for the American people.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator, if you get the nomination, you'll
have to -- (applause) -- (inaudible).
I want to give Senator Clinton a chance to respond, but first a
follow-up on this issue, the general theme of patriotism in your
relationships. A gentleman named William Ayers, he was part of the
Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the
Capitol and other buildings. He's never apologized for that. And in
fact, on 9/11 he was quoted in The New York Times saying, "I don't
regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."
An early organizing meeting for your state senate campaign was
held at his house, and your campaign has said you are friendly. Can
you explain that relationship for the voters, and explain to Democrats
why it won't be a problem?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

George, but this is an example of what I'm talking
about.
This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of
English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some
official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas
from on a regular basis.
And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing
somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8
years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much
sense, George.
The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of
the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who
during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply
the death penalty to those who carried out abortions.
Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I
certainly don't agree with those either.
So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of
how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas
could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter
than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is
reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, I think that is a fair general statement,
but I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers
for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid
directorship position.
And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this
board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were
deeply hurtful to people in New York, and I would hope to every
American, because they were published on 9/11 and he said that he was
just sorry they hadn't done more. And what they did was set bombs and
in some instances people died. So it is -- you know, I think it is,
again, an issue that people will be asking about. And I have no doubt
-- I know Senator Obama's a good man and I respect him greatly but I
think that this is an issue that certainly the Republicans will be
raising.
And it goes to this larger set of concerns about, you know, how
we are going to run against John McCain. You know, I wish the
Republicans would apologize for the disaster of the Bush-Cheney years
and not run anybody, just say that it's time for the Democrats to go
back into the White House. (Laughter, applause.)
know that they're going to be out there, full force. And you know,
I've been in this arena for a long time. I have a lot of baggage, and
everybody has rummaged through it for years. (Laughter.) And so
therefore, I have, you know, an opportunity to come to this campaign
with a very strong conviction and feeling that I will be able to
withstand whatever the Republican sends our way.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

I'm going to have to respond to this just really
quickly, but by Senator Clinton's own vetting standards, I don't think
she would make it, since President Clinton pardoned or commuted the
sentences of two members of the Weather Underground, which I think is
a slightly more significant act than me --
AUDIENCE MEMBER
At 00:00

(Applauds.)
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Please.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

-- than me serving on a board with somebody for
actions that he did 40 years ago.
Look, there is no doubt that the Republicans will attack either
of us. What I've been able to display during the course of this
primary is that I can take a punch. I've taken some pretty good ones
from Senator Clinton. And I don't begrudge her that. That's part of
what the political contest is about.
I am looking forward to having a debate with John McCain, and I
think every poll indicates that I am doing just as well, if not
better, in pulling together the coalition that will defeat John
McCain.
And when it comes to November, and people are going into the
polling place, they're going to be asking, are we going to go through
four more years of George Bush economic policies; are we going to go
through four more years of George Bush foreign policy?
And if we as Democrats and if I as the nominee have put forward a
clear vision for how we're going to move the country forward, deal
with issues like energy dependence, lower gas prices, provide health
care, get our troops out of Iraq, that is a debate that I'm happy to
have and a debate that I'm confident I can win.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And Senator Clinton, I'm getting out of balance in
terms of time.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

I've noticed. (Laughs.)
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And you're getting shortchanged here. And so if you
want to reply here, fine. If you want to wait, we'll do it in the
next half hour.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

We can wait.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

All right.
We will take a commercial break. We will come back. And the
Democratic debate, from the city of Philadelphia before the
Pennsylvania primary, will continue. Stay with us. (Applause.)
(Announcements.)
Another quote from the Constitution, apropos because
we are here, as you heard just a moment ago, at the Constitution
Center.
Senator Clinton, a question for you. We talked about the
military applications from the Constitution and this is a question
that involves the war in Iraq. It comes from Mandy Garber of
Pittsburgh. Take a look.
MANDY GARBER (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania): So, the real question
is, I mean, do the candidates have a real plan to get us out of Iraq
or is it just real campaign propaganda? And you know, it's really
unclear. They keep saying we want to bring the troops back, but
considering what's happening on the ground, how is that going to
happen?
Let me just add a little bit to that question,
because your communications director in your campaign, Howard Wolfson
on a conference call recently was asked, "Is Senator Clinton going to
stick to her announced plan of bringing one or two brigades out of
Iraq every month whatever the realities on the ground?" And Wolfson
said, "I'm giving you a one-word answer so we can be clear about it,
the answer is yes."
So if the military commanders in Iraq came to you on day one and
said this kind of withdrawal would destabilize Iraq, it would set back
all of the gains that we have made, no matter what, you're going to
order those troops to come home?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Yes, I am, Charlie. And here's why: You know,
thankfully we have a system in our country of civilian control of the
military. And our professional military are the best in the world.
They give their best advice and then they execute the policies of the
president. I have watched this president as he has continued to
change the rationale and move the goalposts when it comes to Iraq.
And I am convinced that it is in America's best interest, it is
in the best interest of our military, and I even believe it is in the
best interest of Iraq, that upon taking office, I will ask the
secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff and my security
advisers to immediately put together for me a plan so that I can begin
to withdraw within 60 days. I will make it very clear that we will do
so in a responsible and careful manner, because obviously, withdrawing
troops and equipment is dangerous.
I will also make it clear to the Iraqis that they no longer have
a blank check from the president of the United States, because I
believe that it will be only through our commitment to withdraw that
the Iraqis will begin to do what they have failed to do for all of
these years.
I will also begin an intensive diplomatic effort, both within the
region and internationally, to begin to try to get other countries to
understand the stakes that we all face when it comes to the future of
Iraq.
But I have been convinced and very clear that I will begin to
withdraw troops within 60 days. And we've had other instances in our
history where some military commanders have been very publicly opposed
to what a president was proposing to do.
But I think it's important that this decision be made, and I intend to
make it.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

But Senator Clinton, aren't you saying -- I mean,
General Petraeus was in Washington. You both were there when he
testified, saying that the gains in Iraq are fragile and are
reversible. Are you essentially saying, "I know better than the
military commanders here"?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

No, what I'm saying, Charlie, is that no one can
predict what will happen. There are many different scenarios. But
one thing I am sure of is that our staying in Iraq, our continuing to
lose our men and women in uniform, having many injured, the Iraqi
casualties that we are seeing as well, is -- is no way for us to
maintain a strong position in the world.
It's not only about Iraq. It is about ending the war in Iraq, so
that we can begin paying attention to all of the other problems we
have. There isn't any doubt that Afghanistan has been neglected. It
has not gotten the resources that it needs. We hear that from our
military commanders responsible for that region of the world. And
there are other problems that we have failed to address.
So the bottom line for me is, we don't know what will happen as
we withdraw. We do know what will happen if we stay mired in Iraq.
The Iraqi government will not accept responsibility for its own
future.
Our military will continue to be stretched thin, and our soldiers will
be on their second, third, even their fourth deployment. And we will
not be able to reassert our leadership and our moral authority in the
world.
And I think those are the kind of broad issues that a president
has to take into account.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And Senator Obama, your campaign manager, David
Plouffe, said, when he is -- this is talking about you -- when he is
elected president, we will be out of Iraq in 16 months at the most;
there should be no confusion about that.
So you'd give the same rock-hard pledge, that no matter what the
military commanders said, you would give the order: Bring them home.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Because the commander in chief sets the mission,
Charlie. That's not the role of the generals. And one of the things
that's been interesting about the president's approach lately has been
to say, well, I'm just taking cues from General Petraeus.
Well, the president sets the mission. The general and our troops
carry out that mission. And unfortunately we have had a bad mission,
set by our civilian leadership, which our military has performed
brilliantly. But it is time for us to set a strategy that is going to
make the American people safer.
Now, I will always listen to our commanders on the ground with
respect to tactics. Once I've given them a new mission, that we are
going to proceed deliberately in an orderly fashion out of Iraq and we
are going to have our combat troops out, we will not have permanent
bases there, once I've provided that mission, if they come to me and
want to adjust tactics, then I will certainly take their
recommendations into consideration; but ultimately the buck stops with
me as the commander in chief.
And what I have to look at is not just the situation in Iraq, but
the fact that we continue to see al Qaeda getting stronger in
Afghanistan and in Pakistan, we continue to see anti-American
sentiment fanned all cross the Middle East, we are overstretched in a
way -- we do not have a strategic reserve at this point. If there was
another crisis that was taking place, we would not have a brigade that
we could send to deal with that crisis that isn't already scheduled to
be deployed in Iraq. That is not sustainable. That's not smart
national security policy, and it's going to change when I'm president.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Obama, let's stay in the region.
Iran continues to pursue a nuclear option. Those weapons, if they got
them, would probably pose the greatest threat to Israel. During the
Cold War, it was the United States policy to extend deterrence to our
NATO allies. An attack on Great Britain would be treated as if it
were an attack on the United States.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, our first step should be to keep nuclear
weapons out of the hands of the Iranians, and that has to be one of
our top priorities. And I will make it one of our top priorities when
I'm president of the United States.
I have said I will do whatever is required to prevent the
Iranians from obtaining nuclear weapons. I believe that that includes
direct talks with the Iranians where we are laying out very clearly
for them, here are the issues that we find unacceptable, not only
development of nuclear weapons but also funding terrorist
organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as their anti-Israel
rhetoric and threats towards Israel. I believe that we can offer them
carrots and sticks, but we've got to directly engage and make
absolutely clear to them what our posture is.
Now, my belief is that they should also know that I will take no
options off the table when it comes to preventing them from using
nuclear weapons or obtaining nuclear weapons, and that would include
any threats directed at Israel or any of our allies in the region.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

So you would extend our deterrent to Israel?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

As I've said before, I think it is very important
that Iran understands that an attack on Israel is an attack on our
strongest ally in the region, one that we -- one whose security we
consider paramount, and that -- that would be an act of aggression
that we -- that I would -- that I would consider an attack that is
unacceptable, and the United States would take appropriate action.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, would you?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, in fact, George, I think that we should be
looking to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes much further
than just Israel. Of course I would make it clear to the Iranians
that an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the
United States, but I would do the same with other countries in the
region.
You know, we are at a very dangerous point with Iran. The Bush
policy has failed. Iran has not been deterred. They continue to try
to not only obtain the fissile material for nuclear weapons but they
are intent upon and using their efforts to intimidate the region and
to have their way when it comes to the support of terrorism in Lebanon
and elsewhere.
And I think that this is an opportunity, with skillful diplomacy,
for the United States to go to the region and enlist the region in a
security agreement vis-a-vis Iran. It would give us three tools we
don't now have.
Number one, we've got to begin diplomatic engagement with Iran,
and we want the region and the world to understand how serious we are
about it. And I would begin those discussions at a low level. I
certainly would not meet with Ahmadinejad, because even again today he
made light of 9/11 and said he's not even sure it happened and that
people actually died. He's not someone who would have an opportunity
to meet with me in the White House. But I would have a diplomatic
process that would engage him.
And secondly, we've got to deter other countries from feeling
that they have to acquire nuclear weapons. You can't go to the Saudis
or the Kuwaitis or UAE and others who have a legitimate concern about
Iran and say
At 00:00

Well, don't acquire these weapons to defend yourself
unless you're also willing to say we will provide a deterrent backup
and we will let the Iranians know that. Yes, an attack on Israel
would trigger massive retaliation, but so would an attack on those
countries that are willing to go under this security umbrella and
forswear their own nuclear ambitions.
And finally we cannot permit Iran to become a nuclear weapons
power. And this administration has failed in our efforts to convince
the rest of the world that that is a danger, not only to us and not
just to Israel but to the region and beyond.
Therefore we have got to have this process that reaches out,
beyond even who we would put under the security umbrella, to get the
rest of the world on our side to try to impose the kind of sanctions
and diplomatic efforts that might prevent this from occurring.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Let me turn to the economy. That is the
number one issue on Americans' minds right now.
Yesterday, Senator McCain singled that the number one issue, in
the general election campaign on the economy, is going to be taxes.
And he says that both of you are going to raise taxes, not just on the
wealthy but on everyone. Here's what he said in his speech yesterday.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ)
At 00:00

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): (Pre-recorded remarks.) All these tax
increases are under the fine print of the slogan: hope.
They're going to raise your taxes by thousands of dollars a year.
And they have the audacity to hope you don't mind.
(Laughter.)
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, two-part question.
Two-part question
At 00:00

Can you make an absolute, read-my-lips pledge
that there will be no tax increases of any kind for anyone earning
under $200,000 a year?
And if the economy is as weak a year from now as it is today, will you
-- will you persist in your plans to roll back President Bush's tax
cuts for wealthier Americans?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, George, I have made a commitment that I will
let the taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year go back to
the rates that they were paying in the 1990s.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Even if the economy is weak?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Yes. And here's why: Number one, I do not
believe that it will detrimentally affect the economy by doing that.
As I recall, you know, we used that tool during the 1990s to very good
effect and I think we can do so again.
I am absolutely committed to not raising a single tax on middle
class Americans, people making less than $250,000 a year. In fact, I
have a very specific plan of $100 billion in tax cuts that would go to
help people afford health care, security retirement plans, you know,
make it possible for people to get long-term care insurance and care
for their parents and grandparents who they are trying to support,
making college affordable and so much else.
Well, if you look at how we'd have to sequence that, we might not
be able to do all of that at once. But if you go to my website,
HillaryClinton.com, it is laid out there how I will pay for
everything, because everything I have proposed, I have put in how I
would pay for it.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

An absolute commitment, no middle-class tax
increases of any kind.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

No, that's right. That is my commitment.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama?
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Would you take the same pledge?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, I not only have pledged not to raise their
taxes, I've been the first candidate in this race to specifically say
I would cut their taxes.
And one of the centerpieces of my economic plan would be to say
that we are going to offset the payroll tax, the most regressive of
our taxes, so that families who are earning -- who are middle-income
individuals making $75,000 a year or less, that they would get a tax
break so that families would see up to a thousand dollars worth of
relief.
Senior citizens who have earnings of less than $50,000 wouldn't
have to pay income tax on their Social Security. And middle-class
homeowners who currently don't itemize on their tax filings, they
would be able to get a deduction the same way that wealthy individuals
do.
Now, here's the reason why that's important. We have seen wages
and incomes flat or declining at a time when costs have gone up. And
one of the things that we've learned from George Bush's economic
policies, which John McCain now wants to follow, is that pain trickles
up. And so, partly because people have been strapped and have had a
tough time making ends meet, we're now seeing a deteriorating housing
market.
That's also as a consequence of the lack of oversight and regulation
of these banks and financial institutions that gave loans that they
shouldn't have. And part of it has to do with the fact that you had
$185 million by mortgage lenders spent on lobbyists and special
interests who were writing these laws.
So the rules in Washington -- the tax code has been written on
behalf of the well connected. Our trade laws have -- same thing has
happened. And part of how we're going to be able to deliver on
middle-class tax relief is to change how business is done in
Washington. And that's been a central focus of our campaign.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama, you both have now just taken this
pledge on people under $250,000 and 200-and-what, 250,000.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, it depends on how you calculate it. But it
would be between 200 and 250,000.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

All right.
You have however said you would favor an increase in the capital
gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, "I
certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which
was 28 percent."
It's now 15 percent. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28
percent. But actually Bill Clinton in 1997 signed legislation that
dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Right.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Right.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

And in each instance, when the rate dropped,
revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money.
And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the
revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact
that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be
affected?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look
at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. We saw an
article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made
$29 billion last year -- $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of
what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market
and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate
than their secretaries. That's not fair.
And what I want is not oppressive taxation. I want businesses to
thrive and I want people to be rewarded for their success. But what I
also want to make sure is that our tax system is fair and that we are
able to finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it
and that we're able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our
schools.
And you can't do that for free, and you can't take out a credit
card from the Bank of China in the name of our children and our
grandchildren and then say that you're cutting taxes, which is
essentially what John McCain has been talking about. And that is
irresponsible.
You know, I believe in the principle that you pay as you go, and
you don't propose tax cuts unless you are closing other tax breaks for
individuals. And you don't increase spending unless you're
eliminating some spending or you're finding some new revenue. That's
how we got an additional $4 trillion worth of debt under George Bush.
That is helping to undermine our economy, and it's going to change
when I'm president of the United States.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

But history shows that when you drop the capital
gains tax, the revenues go up.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends
on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going. I think
the biggest problem that we've got on Wall Street right now is the
fact that we've got a housing crisis that this president has not been
attentive to and that it took John McCain three tries before he got it
right.
And if we can stabilize that market and we can get credit flowing
again, then I think we'll see stocks do well, and once again I think
we can generate the revenue that we need to run this government and
hopefully to pay down some of this debt.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Clinton.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, let me start by saying that I think we know
that we've got to get back to an economy that works for everyone. The
president has been very good for people who are doing well, and that's
great. But it was better for our country when we had an economy that
lifted everyone up at the same time, and we had that during the 1990s;
you know, 22.7 million new jobs, more people lifted out of poverty
than any time in our recent history. A typical family saw a $7,000
increase in income.
And we have lost that. You know, now the typical family has lost
at least $1,000. And the fact is that, you know, I don't want to take
one more penny of tax money from anybody. But what I want to do is
make some smart investments. And I was the first to come out with a
strategic energy fund, where we need to be investing in clean
renewable energy. And I think we could put 5 million Americans to
work.
I think we have to invest in our infrastructure. That also will
get the economy moving again, and I believe we could put about 3
million people to work in good union jobs where people get a good wage
with a good set of benefits that can support a middle-class family
with a rising standard of living.
I want to see us actually tackle the housing crisis, something
I've been talking about for over a year. If I had been president a
year ago, I believe we would have begun to avoid some of the worst of
the mortgage and credit crisis, because we would have started much
earlier than we have -- in fact, I don't think we've really done very
much at all yet -- in dealing with a way of freezing home
foreclosures, of freezing interest rates, getting money into
communities to be able to withstand the problems that are caused by
foreclosures.
Governor Rendell has done a great job in Pennsylvania. He saw
this coming. And unlike our current president, who either didn't know
it or didn't care about it, he has really held the line, and
Pennsylvania has been much less affected by home foreclosures. But
the president hasn't done that, and what I have proposed would do
that.
So you've got to look at the entire economy. And from my
perspective, yes, taxes is a piece of it. But you've got to figure
out what is it we would invest in that would make us richer and safer
and stronger tomorrow, which would (be ?) helping everybody.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

I'm going to go to a commercial break. But I just
want to come back to one thing you said, and I want to be clear. The
question
At 00:00

was about capital gains tax. Would you say, "No, I'm not
going to raise capital gains taxes"?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

I wouldn't raise it above the 20 percent if I
raised it at all. I would not raise it above what it was during the
Clinton administration.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

"If I raised it at all." Would you propose an
increase in the capital gains tax?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

You know, Charlie, I'm going to have to look and
see what the revenue situation is. You know, we now have the largest
budget deficit we've ever had, $311 billion. We went from a $5.6
trillion projected surplus to what we have today, which is a $9
trillion debt.
I don't want to raise taxes on anybody. I'm certainly against
one of Senator Obama's ideas, which is to lift the cap on the payroll
tax, because that would impose additional taxes on people who are, you
know, educators here in the Philadelphia area or in the suburbs,
police officers, firefighters and the like.
So I think we have to be very careful about how we navigate this.
So the $250,000 mark is where I am sure we're going. But beyond that,
we're going to have to look and see where we are.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Very quickly, because I owe Senator Clinton time,
but, yeah, you wanted to respond.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, Charlie, I just have to respond real quickly
to Senator Clinton's last comment. What I have proposed is that we
raise the cap on the payroll tax, because right now millionaires and
billionaires don't have to pay beyond $97,000 a year.
That's where it's kept. Now most firefighters, most teachers, you
know, they're not making over $100,000 a year. In fact, only 6
percent of the population does. And I've also said that I'd be
willing to look at exempting people who are making slightly above
that.
But understand the alternative is that because we're going to
have fewer workers to more retirees, if we don't do anything on Social
Security, then those benefits will effectively be cut, because we'll
be running out of money.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

But Senator, that's a tax. That's a tax on people
under $250,000.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, no, look, let me -- let me finish my point
here, Charlie. Senator Clinton just said she certainly wouldn't do
this; this was a bad idea. In Iowa she, when she was outside of
camera range, said to an individual there she'd certainly consider the
idea. And then that was recorded, and she apparently wasn't aware
that it was being recorded.
So this is an option that I would strongly consider, because the
alternatives, like raising the retirement age, or cutting benefits, or
raising the payroll tax on everybody, including people who make less
than $97,000 a year --
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

But there's a heck of a lot of --
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

-- those are not good policy options.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Those are a heck of a lot of people between $97,000
and $200(,000) and $250,000. If you raise the payroll taxes, that's
going to raise taxes on them.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

And that's -- and that's -- and that's why I've
said, Charlie, that I would look at potentially exempting those who
are in between.
But the point is, we're going to have to capture some revenue in
order to stabilize the Social Security system. You can't -- you can't
get something for nothing. And if we care about Social Security,
which I do, and if we are firm in our commitment to make sure that
it's going to be there for the next generation, and not just for our
generation, then we have an obligation to figure out how to stabilize
the system.
And I think we should be honest in presenting our ideas in terms of
how we're going to do that and not just say that we're going to form a
commission and try to solve the problem some other way.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, in fact, I am totally committed to making
sure Social Security is solvent. If we had stayed on the path we were
on at the end of my husband's administration, we sure would be in a
lot better position because we had a plan to extend the life of the
Social Security Trust Fund and again, President Bush decided that that
wasn't a priority, that the war in Iraq and tax cuts for the
wealthiest of Americans were his priorities, neither of which he's
ever paid for. I think it's the first time we've ever been taken to
war and had a president who wouldn't pay for it.
But when it comes to Social Security, fiscal responsibility is
the first and most important step. You've got to begin to reign in
the budget, pay as you go, to try to replenish our Social Security
Trust Fund.
And with all due respect, the last time we had a crisis in Social
Security was 1983. President Reagan and Speaker Tip O'Neill came up
with a commission. That was the best and smartest way, because you've
got to get Republicans and Democrats together.
That's what I will do. And I will say, number one, don't cut
benefits on current beneficiaries; they're already having a hard
enough time. And number two, do not impose additional tax burdens on
middle-class families.
There are lots of ways we can fix Social Security that don't impose
those burdens, and I will do that.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

That commission raised the retirement age, Charlie,
and also raised the payroll tax. And so Senator Clinton, if she --
she can't have it both ways. You can't come at me for proposing a
solution that will save Social Security without burdening middle-
income Americans, and then suggest that somehow she's got a magic
solution.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

But there are more progressive ways of doing it
than, you know, lifting the cap. And I think we'll work it out. I
have every confidence we're going to work it out. I know that we can
make this happen.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

On that point, we're going to take a break, a
commercial break. The Democratic debate from here in Philadelphia
before the Pennsylvania primary will continue. Stay with us. We'll
be back. (Applause.)
(Announcements.)
Back to the Philadelphia Debate, the Democratic
Debate, just less than a week now before the Pennsylvania primary.
And I would be remiss tonight if I didn't take note of the fact
that today is the one-year anniversary of Virginia Tech. And I think
it's fair to say that probably every American during this day, at one
point or another, said a small prayer for the great people at that
university and for those who died.
It also, I suspect, makes this an appropriate time to talk about
guns. And it has not been talked about much in this campaign and it's
an important issue in the state of Pennsylvania.
Both of you, in the past, have supported strong gun control
measures. But now when I listen to you on the campaign, I hear you
emphasizing that you believe in an individual's right to bear arms.
Both of you were strong advocates for licensing of guns. Both of
you were strong advocates for the registration of guns.
Why don't you emphasize that now, Senator Clinton?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, Charlie, on Friday, I was with Mayor Nutter,
who's here, in West Philadelphia at the YMCA there, to talk about what
we could do together to bring down the crime rate that has ravaged
Philadelphia.
You know, more than one person, on average, a day is murdered in
Philadelphia. And Mayor Nutter is very committed, as the mayor of
this great city, to try to do what he can to stem the violence.
And what I said then is what I have been saying, that I will be a
good partner, for cities like Philadelphia, as president. Because I
will bring back the COPS program, the so-called COPS program, where we
had 100,000 police on the street, which really helped drive down the
crime rate and also helped create better community relations.
I will also work to reinstate the assault weapons ban. We had it
during the 1990s. It really was an aid to our police officers, who
are now once again, because it has lapsed -- the Republicans will not
reinstate it -- are being outgunned on our streets by these military-
style weapons.
I will also work to make sure that police departments in
Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, across America get access to the
federal information that will enable them to track illegal guns,
because the numbers are astounding. Probably 80 percent of the guns
used in gun crimes are in the hands of that criminal, that gang member
-- unfortunately, people who are sometimes, you know, mentally
challenged -- because it got there illegally. And under the
Republicans, that information was kept from local law enforcement.
So I believe that we can balance what I think is the right
equation. I respect the Second Amendment. I respect the rights of
lawful gun owners to own guns, to use their guns, but I also believe
that most lawful gun owners whom I have spoken with for many years
across our country also want to be sure that we keep those guns out of
the wrong hands.
And as president, I will work to try to bridge this divide, which I
think has been polarizing and, frankly, doesn't reflect the common
sense of the American people.
So we will strike the right balance to protect the constitutional
right but to give people the feeling and the reality that they will be
protected from guns in the wrong hands.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama, the District of Columbia has a law,
it's had a law since 1976, it's now before the United States Supreme
Court, that prohibits ownership of handguns, a sawed-off shotgun, a
machine gun or a short-barreled rifle. Is that law consistent with an
individual's right to bear arms?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Charlie, I confess I obviously haven't listened to
the briefs and looked at all the evidence. As a general principle, I
believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear
arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean
that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of
that right, and, you know, in the same way that we have a right to
private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances
that determine how you can use it.
And I think that it is going to be important for us to reconcile
what are two realities in this country. There's the reality of gun
ownership and the tradition of gun ownership that's passed on from
generation to generation.
think has been polarizing and, frankly, doesn't reflect the common
sense of the American people.
So we will strike the right balance to protect the constitutional
right but to give people the feeling and the reality that they will be
protected from guns in the wrong hands.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama, the District of Columbia has a law,
it's had a law since 1976, it's now before the United States Supreme
Court, that prohibits ownership of handguns, a sawed-off shotgun, a
machine gun or a short-barreled rifle. Is that law consistent with an
individual's right to bear arms?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Charlie, I confess I obviously haven't listened to
the briefs and looked at all the evidence. As a general principle, I
believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear
arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean
that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of
that right, and, you know, in the same way that we have a right to
private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances
that determine how you can use it.
And I think that it is going to be important for us to reconcile
what are two realities in this country. There's the reality of gun
ownership and the tradition of gun ownership that's passed on from
generation to generation.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, you have a home in D.C.
Do you support the D.C. ban?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

You know, George, I want to give local communities
the opportunity to have some authority over determining how to keep
their citizens safe.
This case you're referring to, before the Supreme Court, is
apparently dividing the Bush administration. You know, the Bush
administration basically said, we don't have enough facts to know
whether or not it is appropriate.
And Vice President Cheney who, you know, is a fourth special
branch of government all unto himself -- (laughter) -- has actually
filed a brief saying, oh, no, we have to, you know, we have to prevent
D.C. from doing this.
So --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

But what do you think? Do you support it or
not?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, what I support is sensible regulation that
is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Is the D.C. ban consistent with that right?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, I think a total ban, with no exceptions
under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But I
don't know the facts.
But I don't think that should blow open a hole that says that
D.C. or Philadelphia or anybody else cannot come up with sensible
regulations to protect their people and keep, you know, machine guns
and assault weapons out of the hands of folks who shouldn't have them.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Well, with all due respect, and I'm not sure I got
an answer from Senator Obama. But do you still favor licensing and
registration of handguns?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

What I favor is what works in New York. You know,
we have a set of rules in New York City and we have a totally
different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in
New York City is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the
federal government to be having any kind of, you know, blanket rules
that they're going to try to impose, I think doesn't make sense.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

But Senator, you were for that when you ran
for Senate in New York.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

I was for -- I was for the New York rules, that's
right. I was for the New York rules because they have worked over
time. And there isn't a lot of uproar in New York about changing them,
because I go to upstate New York, where we have a lot of hunters and
people who are collectors and people who are sport shooters; they have
every reason to believe that their rights are being respected. You
walk down the street with a police officer in Manhattan; he wants to
be sure that there is some way of protecting him and protecting the
people that are in his charge.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Obama, last May we talked about
affirmative action, ad you said at the time that affluent African
Americans like your daughters should probably be treated as pretty
advantaged when they apply to college, and that poor white children --
kids -- should get special consideration, affirmative action.
So, as president, how specifically would you recommend changing
affirmative action policies so that affluent African Americans are not
given advantages, and poor, less affluent whites are?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, I think that the basic principle that should
guide discussions not just on affirmative action but how we are
admitting young people to college generally is, how do we make sure
that we're providing ladders of opportunity for people? How do we
make sure that every child in America has a decent shot in pursuing
their dreams?
And race is still a factor in our society. And I think that for
universities and other institutions to say, you know, we're going to
take into account the hardships that somebody has experienced because
they're black or Latino or because they're women --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Even if they're wealthy?
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

I think that's something that they can take into
account, but it can only be in the context of looking at the whole
situation of the young person. So if they look at my child and they
say, you know, Malia and Sasha, they've had a pretty good deal, then
that shouldn't be factored in. On the other hand, if there's a young
white person who has been working hard, struggling, and has overcome
great odds, that's something that should be taken into account.
So I still believe in affirmative action as a means of overcoming
both historic and potentially current discrimination, but I think that
it can't be a quota system and it can't be something that is simply
applied without looking at the whole person, whether that person is
black or white or Hispanic, male or female.
What we want to do is make sure that people who have been locked out
of opportunity are going to be able to walk through those doors of
opportunity in the future.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Clinton, would you agree to that
kind of change?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, here's the way I'd prefer to think about it.
I think we've got to have affirmative action generally to try to
give more opportunities to young people from disadvantaged backgrounds
-- whoever they are. That's why I'm a strong supporter of early
childhood education and universal pre-kindergarten.
That's why I'm against No Child Left Behind as it is currently
operating. And I would end it, because we can do so much better to
have an education system that really focuses in on kids who need extra
help.
That's why I'm in favor of much more college aid, not these
outrageous predatory student loan rates that are charging people I've
met, across Pennsylvania, 20, 25, 28 percent interest rates. Let's
make college affordable again.
See, I think we have to look at what we're trying to achieve here
somewhat differently. We do have a real gap. We have a gap in
achievement. We have a gap in income. But we don't have a potential
gap.
I think our job should be to try to create the conditions that
enable people to live up to their God-given potential. And that means
health care for everyone -- no exceptions, nobody left out. And it
means taking a hard look at what we need to do to compete and win in
the global economy.
So that's how I prefer to think about it. You know, let's
affirmatively invest in our young people and make it possible for them
to have a good middle-class life in today's much more competitive
economy.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

We're running short on time. Let me just give some
quick questions here, and let me give you a minute each to answer.
What are you going to do about gas prices? It's getting to $4 a
gallon. It is killing truckers.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

That's right.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

People are in trouble. And yet the whole world pays
a whole lot more for gas than we do. What are you going to do about
it?
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, I met with a group of truckers in Harrisburg
about a week and a half ago, and here's what I told them. Number one,
we are going to investigate these gas prices. The federal government
has certain tools that this administration will not use, in the
Federal Trade Commission and other ways, through the Justice
Department, because I believe there is market manipulation going on,
particularly among energy traders. We've seen this movie before, in
Enron, and we've got to get to the bottom to make sure we're not being
taken advantage of.
Number two, I would quit putting oil into the Strategic Petroleum
Reserve and I would release some to help drive the price down
globally.
And thirdly, if there is any kind of gas tax moratorium, as some
people are now proposing --
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Like John McCain.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

-- like John McCain, and some Democrats, frankly
-- I think Senator Menendez and others have said that we may have to
do something, because when you get to $4-a-gallon gas, people are not
going to be able to afford to drive to work. And what I would like to
see us do is to say if we have that, then we should have a windfall
profits tax on these outrageous profits of the oil companies, and put
that money back into the highway trust fund, so that we don't lose out
on repair and construction and rebuilding.
But ultimately, Charlie, we've got to have a long-term energy
strategy. We are so much more dependent on foreign oil today than we
were on 9/11, and that is a real indictment of our leadership. And
I've laid out a comprehensive plan to move us toward energy
independence that I hope I will have the opportunity to implement as
president.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Very quickly, Senator Obama, I -- the same thing.
But we've heard from politicians for a long time we're going to end
dependence on foreign oil. I just have a quote: "The generation-long
growth in our dependence on foreign oil will be stopped dead in its
tracks right now." That was Jimmy Carter in 1979. And it's gotten a
whole lot worse since then.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, you're right. And that's why people are
cynical, because decade after decade, we talk about energy policy or
we talk about health care policy, and through Democratic and
Republican administrations, nothing gets done.
Now, I think many of the steps that Senator Clinton outlined are
similar to the plans that we talked about. It is absolutely true that
we've got to investigate potential price gouging or market
manipulation. I have strongly called for a windfall profits tax that
can provide both consumers relief and also invest in renewable
energies.
I think that long term, we're going to have to raise fuel
efficiency standards on cars, because the only way that we're going to
be able to reduce gas prices is if we reduce demand. You've still got
a billion people in China, and maybe 700 million in India, who still
want cars. And so the long-term trajectory is that we're going to
have to get serious about increasing our fuel efficiency standards and
investing in new technologies.
That's something I'm committed to doing. I've talked about spending
$150 billion over 10 years in an Apollo Project, a Manhattan Project
to create the alternative energy strategies that will work not only
for this generation but for the next.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

We're running out of time for this segment.
Very quickly, for each of you, 30 seconds. Senator Clinton, you've
said that you believe in using former presidents. How would you use
George W. Bush if you were president? (Laughter.)
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

I'm going to have to give some serious thought to
that. (Laughter.) You know, I do believe that it's a way to unify
our country. I thought that President Bush was right when he asked
his father and Bill to represent us during the aftermath of the
tsunami. I thought it sent a great message here at home and around
the world. And I'm sure that there will be opportunities to ask all
the former presidents to work on behalf of our nation.
You know, we've got to come together. And the former presidents
really exemplify that, whether one agrees with them politically or
not. When they're all together, representing our country, that sends
a strong message. And I would look for a way to use all our former
presidents, but that'll take some careful thought on my part.
(Laughter.)
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS
At 00:00

Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, you know, I think that having the advice and
counsel of all former presidents is important. I'm probably more
likely to advice of the current president's father than president
himself because I think that when you look back at George H.W. Bush's
foreign policy, it was a wise foreign policy.
And how we executed the Gulf War, how we managed the transition out of
the Cold War, I think, is an example of how we can get bipartisan
agreement. I don't think the Democrats have a monopoly on good ideas.
I think that there are a lot of thoughtful Republicans out there.
The problem is, we've been locked in a divided politics for so
long that we've stopped listening to each other. And I think that
this president in particular has fed those divisions. That's
something that we've tried to end in this campaign, and I think we're
being successful.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

All right.
We're going to take one more commercial break, come back with a
final question for both of you in just a moment.
(Announcements.)
Final question, now, to finish what I think has been
a fascinating debate, and I appreciate both of you being here --
thanking you in advance.
I -- it is hard to see how either one of you win this nomination
on the basis of pledged delegates in primaries. And it could well
come down to superdelegates. And I know you've been talking to them
all along. But let's say you're at the convention in Denver, and
you're talking to a group of 20 undecided superdelegates. How are you
going to make the case to them why you're the better candidate and
more electable in November?
What do you say to them -- minute-and-a-half each. And by a flip
of the coin, Senator Clinton goes first.
SEN. CLINTON
At 00:00

Well, I say to them what I've said to voters
across America -- that we need a fighter back in the White House. We
need someone who's going to take on the special interests.
And I have a plan to take away $55 billion of the giveaways and
the subsidies that the president and Congress have lavished on the
drug companies and the oil companies and the insurance companies and
Wall Street. And I have a plan to give that money back -- give it
back in tax cuts to the middle class -- people who deserve it, who
have been struggling under this president, who feel invisible, who
feel like, you know, they're not even seen anymore.
And we're going to make everybody feel like they're part of the
American family again. And we're going to tackle the problems that
have been waiting for a champion back in the White House.
Now, obviously, I can't do this alone. I can only do it if I get
people who believe in me and support me and who look at my track
record and know that, you know, I've spent a lifetime trying to
empower people, trying to fight for them.
And I think it's going to be challenging, but it is absolutely what we
must do in order to keep faith with our country and to give our
children the future that they deserve.
So I will tell everyone who listens that I'm ready to be the
commander in chief. I've 35 generals and admirals, including two
former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Wesley Clark and
others, who believe that I am the person to lead us out of Iraq, to
take on al Qaeda, to rebuild our military.
And I will turn this economy around. We will get back to shared
prosperity and we will see once again that we can do this the right
way so it's not just a government of the few, by the few and for the
few. And I need your help. I need the help of the voters here in
Pennsylvania, first and foremost, in order to be able to get to those
conversations.
And I hope that I have demonstrated not just over the last weeks
or even over the last hour and half but over a lifetime that you can
count on me. You know where I stand. You know that I will fight for
you and that together we're going to take back our country.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA
At 00:00

Well, when we started this campaign 15 months ago,
it was based on a couple of simple principles: number one, that we
were in a defining moment in our history. Our nation's at war. Our
planet's in peril. Our economy is in a shambles. And most
importantly, the American people have lost trust in their government,
not just Democrats but independents and Republicans who've been
disillusioned about promises that have been made election after
election, decade after decade.
And the bet I was making was a bet on the American people; that
they were tired of a politics that was about tearing about each other
down, but wanted a politics that was about lifting the country up;
that they didn't want spin and PR out of their elected officials, they
wanted an honest conversation.
And most importantly, I believe that change does not happen from
the top down, it happens from the bottom up. And that's why we
decided we weren't going to take PAC money or money from federal
registered lobbyists, that we were not going to be subject to special-
interest influence, but instead were going to enlist the American
people in a project of changing this country.
And during the course of these last 15 months, my bet's paid off
because the American people have responded in record numbers, and not
just people who are accustomed to participating, but people who
haven't participated in years. I talked to a woman here in
Pennsylvania, 70 years old, she whispered to me, "I've never voted
before, but I'm going to vote in this election."
And so my point to the super delegates would be that if we're
going to deliver on health care for every American, improve our
schools, deliver on jobs, then it's going to be absolutely vital we
form a new political coalition in this country. That's what we've
been doing in this campaign, and that's what I'm going to do when I'm
president of the United States of America.
MR. GIBSON
At 00:00

The audience has been very good in restraining
themselves. I think a round of applause for Senators Obama and
Clinton. (Applause.)
And that concludes tonight's Pennsylvania debate.
We appreciate both of you and wish you both the best.
Thank you very much. (Applause continues.)
At 00:00

MR. GIBSON: So we're going to begin with opening statements, and
we had a flip of the coin, and the brief opening statement first from
Senator Obama
At 00:00

SEN. OBAMA: Thank you very much, Charlie and George, and thanks
to all in the audience and who are out there.
You know, Senator Clinton and I have been running for 15 months
now. We've been traveling across Pennsylvania for at least the last
five weeks. And everywhere I go, what I've been struck by is the core
decency and generosity of people of Pennsylvania and the American
people.
But what I've also been struck by is the frustration. You know,
I met a gentleman in Latrobe who had lost his job and was trying to
figure out how he could find the gas money to travel to find a job.
And that story, I think, is typical of what we're seeing all across
the country. People are frustrated not only with jobs moving and
incomes being flat, health care being too expensive, but also that
special interests have come to dominate Washington, and they don't
feel like they're being listened to.
I think this election offers us an opportunity to change that, to
transform that frustration into something more hopeful, to bring about
real change. And I'm running for president to ensure that the
American people are heard in the White House. That's my commitment,
if the people of Pennsylvania vote for me and the people of America
vote for me.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Clinton?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, we meet tonight here in Philadelphia where
our founders determined that the promise of America would be available
for future generations if we were willing and able to make it happen.
You know, I am here, as is Senator Obama. Neither of us were
included in those original documents. But in a very real sense, we
demonstrate that that promise of America is alive and well. But it is
at risk.
There is a lot of concern across Pennsylvania and America.
People do feel as though their government is not solving problems,
that it is not standing up for them, that we've got to do more to
actually provide the good jobs that will support families, deal once
and for all with health care for every American, make our education
system the true passport to opportunity, restore our standing in the
world.
I am running for president because I know we can meet the
challenges of today, that we can continue to fulfill that promise that
was offered to successive generations of Americans starting here so
long ago.
And I hope that this evening, voters in Pennsylvania and others
across the country will listen carefully to what we have to say, will
look at our records, will look at the plans we have.
And I offer those on my website, hillaryclinton.com, for more
detail. Because I believe with all my heart that we the people can
have the kind of future that our children and grandchildren so richly
deserve.
MR. GIBSON: Thank you both
At 00:00

And with that as preamble, we will take a very short commercial
break. And we will come back and begin 90 minutes of debate. The
Pennsylvania Democratic Debate continues after just one minute.
(Announcements.)
MR. GIBSON: We'll begin each of the segments of this debate with
short quotes from the Constitution that are apropos to what we're
going to talk about. And it is good to be back here at the National
Constitution Center.
So let's start. And I'm going to give a general question, before
we get to the issues, to both of you on politics.
There have already been many votes in many states, and you have
each, as you analyze the vote, appealed disproportionately to
different constituencies in the party, and that dismays many in the
party. Governor Cuomo, an elder statesman in your party, has come
forward with a suggestion. He has said, look, fight it to the end.
Let every vote be counted. You contest every delegate. Go at each
other to the -- right till the end. Don't give an inch to one
another. But pledge now that whichever one of you wins this contest,
you'll take the other as your running mate, and that the other will
agree if they lose, to take second place on the ticket.
So I put the question to both of you: Why not?
(Pause, laughter.)
Don't all speak at once. (Laughter.)
SEN. OBAMA: Well, I'm happy to start with a response. Look,
this has been an extraordinary journey that both Senator Clinton and I
have been on and a number of other able candidates. And I think very
highly of Senator Clinton's record. But as I've said before, I think
it's premature at this point for us to talk about who vice
presidential candidates will be because we're still trying to
determine who the nominee will be.
But one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that come August, when
we're in Denver, the Democratic Party will come together, because we
have no choice if we want to deliver on the promises that not only
we've made but the founders made. We are seeing peoples' economic
status slipping further and further behind. We've seen people who
have not only lost their jobs but now are at risk of losing their
homes.
We have a sharp contrast in terms of economic policies. John McCain
wants to continue four more years of George Bush policies and, on the
foreign policy front, wants to continue George Bush's foreign policy.
So I'm confident that both Senator Clinton's supporters and
Senator Obama's supporters will be supporting the Democratic nominee
when we start engaging in that general election.
MR. GIBSON: But Senator Clinton, Governor Cuomo made that
suggestion because he's not so sure. And other Democrats are not so
sure.
Just to quote from the Constitution again, "In every case,"
Article Two, Section One, "after the choice of the president, the
person having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be
the vice president."
If it was good enough in colonial times, why not in these times.
SEN. CLINTON: Well, Charlie, I'm going to do everything I
possibly can to make sure that one of us takes the oath of office next
January. I think that has to be the overriding goal, whatever we have
to do.
Obviously we are still contesting to determine who will be the
nominee. But once that is resolved, I think it is absolutely
imperative that our entire party close ranks, that we become unified.
I will do everything to make sure that the people who supported
me support our nominee.
I will go anywhere in the country to make the case. And I know that
Barack feels the same way, because both of us have spent 15 months
traveling our country. I have seen the damage of the Bush years.
I've seen the extraordinary pain that people have suffered from
because of the failed policies; you know, those who have held my hands
who have lost sons or daughters in Iraq, and those who have lost sons
or daughters because they didn't have health insurance.
And so, regardless of the differences there may be between us,
and they are differences, they pale in comparison to the differences
between us and Senator McCain.
So we will certainly do whatever is necessary to make sure that a
Democrat is in the White House next January.
MR. GIBSON: All right
At 00:00

I will let this go. I don't think
Governor Cuomo has any takers yet
At 00:00

Let me start with a question to you, Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA: Yes.
MR. GIBSON: Talking to a closed-door fundraiser in San Francisco
10 days ago, you got talking in California about small-town
Pennsylvanians who have had tough economic times in recent years. And
you said they get bitter, and they cling to guns or they cling to
their religion or they cling to antipathy toward people who are not
like them.
Now, you've said you misspoke; you said you mangled what it was you
wanted to say. But we've talked to a lot of voters. Do you
understand that some people in this state find that patronizing and
think that you said actually what you meant?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think there's no doubt that I can see how
people were offended. It's not the first time that I've made, you
know, a statement that was mangled up. It's not going to be the last.
But let me be very clear about what I meant, because it's
something that I've said in public, it's something that I've said in
television, which is that people are going through very difficult
times right now and we are seeing it all across the country. And that
was true even before the current economic hardships that are stemming
from the housing crisis. This is the first economic expansion that we
just completed in which ordinary people's incomes actually went down,
when adjusted for inflation, at the same time as their costs of
everything from health care to gas at the pump have skyrocketed.
And so the point I was making was that when people feel like
Washington's not listening to them, when they're promised year after
year, decade after decade, that their economic situation is going to
change, and it doesn't, then politically they end up focusing on those
things that are constant, like religion.
They end up feeling "This is a place where I can find some refugee.
This is something that I can count on." They end up being much more
concerned about votes around things like guns, where traditions have
been passed on from generation to generation. And those are
incredibly important to them.
And yes, what is also true is that wedge issues, hot-button
issues, end up taking prominence in our -- in our politics. And part
of the problem is that when those issues are exploited, we never get
to solve the issues that people really have to get some relief on,
whether it's health care or education or jobs.
So this i something that I've said before. It is something that
I will repeat again. And yes, people are frustrated and angry about
it, but what we're seeing in this election is the opportunity to break
through that frustration. And that's what our campaign has been
about, saying that if the American people get involved and engaged,
then we are going to start seeing change. And that's what makes this
election unique.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Clinton?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I am the granddaughter of a factory worker
from Scranton who went to work in the Scranton lace mills when he was
11 years old, worked his entire life there, mostly six-day weeks.
He was also very active in the Court Street Methodist Church.
And he raised three sons and was very proud that he sent all of them
to college.
I don't believe that my grandfather or my father, or the many
people whom I have had the privilege of knowing and meeting across
Pennsylvania over many years, cling to religion when Washington is not
listening to them. I think that is a fundamental, sort of,
misunderstanding of the role of religion and faith in times that are
good and times that are bad.
And I similarly don't think that people cling to their
traditions, like hunting and guns, either when they are frustrated
with the government. I just don't believe that's how people live
their lives.
Now, that doesn't mean that people are not frustrated with the
government. We have every reason to be frustrated, particularly with
this administration.
But I can see why people would be taken aback and offended by the
remarks. And I think what's important is that we all listen to one
another and we respect one another and we understand the different
decisions that people make in life, because we're a stronger country
because of that.
And certainly the weeks that I have spent criss-crossing
Pennsylvania, from Erie to Lancaster County, and meeting a lot of
wonderful people, says to me that despite whatever frustration anyone
has with our government, people are resilient, they are positive, and
they're ready for leadership again that will summon them to something
greater than themselves, and that we will deliver on that if given a
chance.
MR. GIBSON: We're going to have some other questions on the same
theme, so you'll be able to get back that.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me pick up on this
At 00:00

When these comments
from Senator Obama broke on Friday, Senator McCain's campaign
immediately said that it was going to be a killer issue in November.
Senator Clinton, when Bill Richardson called you to say he was
endorsing Barack Obama, you told him that Senator Obama can't win.
I'm not going to ask you about that conversation. I know you don't
want to talk about it. But a simple yes-or-no question: Do you think
Senator Obama can beat John McCain or not?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think we have to beat John McCain, and I
have every reason to believe we're going to have a Democratic
president and it's going to be either Barack or me. And we're going
to make that happen.
And what is important is that we understand exactly the
challenges facing us in order to defeat Senator McCain.
He will be a formidable candidate. There isn't any doubt about
that. He has a great American story to tell. He's a man who has
served our country with distinction over many years, but he has the
wrong ideas about America. And those ideas will be tested in the
cauldron of this campaign.
But I also know, having now gone through 16 years of being on the
receiving end of what the Republican Party dishes out, how important
it is that we try to go after every single vote everywhere we possibly
can to get to those electoral votes that we're going to need to have
the next president elected.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But the question is, do you think Senator
Obama can do that? Can he win?
SEN. CLINTON: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Now, I think that I can do a better job. (Laughter.) I mean,
obviously, that's why I'm here. I think I am better able and better
prepared in large measure because of what I've been through and the
work that I've done and the results that I've produced for people and
the coalition that I have put together in this campaign, that Charlie
referred to earlier.
Obviously, I believe I would be the best president, or I would
not still be here, standing on this stage, and I believe I'm the
better and stronger candidate against Senator McCain, to go toe to toe
with him on national security and on how we turn the economy around.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, do yo think Senator Clinton
can win?
SEN. OBAMA: Absolutely, and I've said so before. But I too
think that I'm the better candidate. (Laughter.) And I don't think
that surprises anybody.
Let me just pick up on a couple of things that Senator Clinton
said, though, because during the course of the last few days, you
know, she's said I'm elitist, out of touch, condescending. Let me be
absolutely clear. It would be pretty hard for me to be condescending
towards people of faith, since I'm a person of faith and have done
more than most other campaigns in reaching out specifically to people
of faith, and have written about how Democrats make an error when they
don't show up and speak directly to people's faith, because I think we
can get those votes, and I have in the past.
The same is true with respect to gun owners. I have large
numbers of sportsmen and gun owners in my home state, and they have
supported me precisely because I have listened to them, and I know
them well.
So the problem that we have in our politics, which is fairly
typical, is that you take one person's statement, if it's not properly
phrased, and you just beat it to death. And that's what Senator
Clinton's been doing over the last four days. And I understand that.
That's politics, and I expect to have to go through this -- this
process.
But I do think it's important to recognize that it's not helping
that person who's sitting at the kitchen table who is trying to figure
out how to pay the bills at the end of the month.
And Senator Clinton's right. She has gone through this. You
know, I recall when back in 1992, when she made a statement about how,
what do you expect, should I be at home baking cookies?
And people attacked her for being elitist and this and that. And
I remember watching that on TV and saying, well, that's not who she
is; that's not what she believes; that's not what she meant. And I'm
sure that that's how she felt as well.
But the problem is that that's the kind of politics that we've
been accustomed to. And I think Senator Clinton learned the wrong
lesson from it, because she's adopting the same tactics.
What the American people want are not distractions. They want to
figure out, how are we actually going to deliver on health care; how
are we going to deliver better jobs for people; how are we going to
improve their incomes; how are we going to send them to college?
That's what we have to focus on. And yes, they are in part
frustrated and angry, because this is what passes for our politics in
terms -- instead of figuring out, how do we build coalitions to
actually move things forward?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, could I --
MR. GIBSON: Senator Clinton, before I move on, do you want to do
a brief response?
SEN. CLINTON: Oh, I do.
Well, first of all, I want to be very clear. My comments were
about your remarks.
And I think that's important, because it wasn't just me responding to
them, it was people who heard them, people who felt as though they
were aimed at their values, their quality of life, the decisions that
they have made.
Now, obviously, what we have to do as Democrats is make sure we
get enough votes to win in November. And as George just said, you
know, the Republicans, who are pretty shrewd about what it takes to
win, certainly did jump on the comments.
But what's important here is what we each stand for and what our
records are and what we have done over the course of our lives to try
to improve the circumstances of those who deserve to live up to their
own potential, to make the decisions that are right for them and their
families. And I think year after year for now 35 years, I have a
proven record of results.
And what I'm taking into this campaign is my passion for
empowering people, for giving people the feeling that they can make a
better future for themselves. And I think it's important that that
starts from a base of respect and connection in order to be able to
get people to follow you and believe that you will lead them in the
better direction.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Obama, since you last debated, you made a
significant speech in this building on the subject of race and your
former pastor, the Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And you said subsequent
to giving that speech that you never heard him say from the pulpit the
kinds of things that so have offended people.
But more than a year ago, you rescinded the invitation to him to
attend the event when you announced your candidacy. He was to give
the invocation. And according to the reverend, I'm quoting him, you
said to him, "You can get kind of rough in sermons. So what we've
decided is that it's best for you not to be out there in public." I'm
quoting the reverend. But what did you know about his statements that
caused you to rescind that invitation?
SEN. OBAMA: Well --
MR. GIBSON: And if you knew he got rough in sermons, why did it
take you more than a year to publicly disassociate yourself from his
remarks?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, understand that I hadn't seen the remarks that
ended up playing on youTube repeatedly. This was a set of remarks
that had been quoted in Rolling Stone Magazine and we looked at them
and I thought that they would be a distraction since he had just put
them forward.
But, Charlie, I've discussed this extensively. Reverend Wright
is somebody who made controversial statements but they were not of the
sort that we saw that offended so many Americans. And that's why I
specifically said that these comments were objectionable; they're not
comments that I believe in.
And I disassociated myself with them.
What I also said was, the church and the body of Reverend
Wright's work, over the course of 30 years, were not represented in
those snippets that were shown on television, and that the church has
done outstanding work in ministries on HIV/AIDS, prison ministries,
providing people with the kind of comfort that we expect in our
churches.
And so what I think I tried to do in the speech here at the
Constitution Center was speak to a broader context, which is that
there is anger in the African American community that sometimes gets
expressed, whether in the barbershop or in the church.
That's true not just in the African American community. That's
true in other communities as well. But what we have the opportunity
to do is to move beyond it. And that's what I think my candidacy
represents.
And Senator Clinton mentioned earlier that we have to connect
with people. That's exactly what we've done throughout this campaign.
The reason we've attracted new people into the process, the
reason we've generated so much excitement, the reason that we have
been so successful in so many states across the country, bridging
racial lines, bridging some of the old divisions, is because people
recognize that unless we do, then we're not going to be able to
deliver on the promises that people hear every 4 years, every 8 years,
every 12 years.
And it's my job in this campaign to try to move beyond some of those
divisions, because when we are unified, there is nothing that we
cannot tackle.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Clinton, let me -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
Senator Clinton, let me follow up, and let me add to that. You have
said that he would not have been my pastor, and you said that you have
to speak out against those kinds of remarks, and implicitly by getting
up and moving, and I presume you mean out of the church.
There are 8,000 members of Senator Obama's church. And we have
heard the inflammatory remarks of Reverend Wright, but so too have we
heard testament to many great things that he did. Do you honestly
believe that 8,000 people should have gotten up and walked out of that
church?
SEN. CLINTON: I was asked a personal question, Charlie, and I
gave a personal answer. Obviously, one's choice of church and pastor
is rooted in what one believes is what you're seeking in church and
what kind of, you know, fellowship you find in church. But I have to
say that, you know, for Pastor Wright to have given his first sermon
after 9/11 and to have blamed the United States for the attack, which
happened in my city of New York, would have been intolerable for me.
And therefore I would have not been able to stay in the church, and
maybe it's, you know, just, again, a personal reflection that
regardless of whatever good is going on -- and I have no reason to
doubt that a lot of good things were happening in that church -- you
get to choose your pastor. You don't choose your family, but you get
to choose your pastor. And when asked a direct question, I said I
would not have stayed in the church.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, let me just respond to -- to two things.
Absolutely many of these remarks were objectionable. I've already
said that I didn't hear them, because I wasn't in church that day. I
didn't learn about those statements until much later.
But --
MR. GIBSON: But you did rescind the invitation to him --
SEN. OBAMA: But that was on -- that was on something entirely
different, Charlie. That -- that was on a different statement. And I
think that what Senator Clinton referred to was extremely offensive,
to me and a lot of people.
But what I should also point out is that Senator Clinton's former
pastor, I think, publicly talked about how Reverend Wright was being
caricatured and that in fact this is somebody who had maintained an
extraordinary ministry for many years.
And so there are two important points: Number one, I wasn't aware of
all these statements, and I can understand how people would take
offense; but number two, the church is a community that extends beyond
the pastor and that church has done outstanding work for many, many
years.
The third point I guess I would make is once again that unless we
can bridge some of these divides we're not going to solve problems in
this country. And what my entire body of work over the last 20 years
has been devoted to is getting blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians,
Native Americans, young, old to work together, starting when I was a
community organizer. And my own life embodies that diversity. That's
what America's about and that's what this campaign has been about.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator, two questions. Number one, do you
think Reverend Wright loves America as much as you do? And number
two, if you get the nomination, what will you do when those sermons
are played on television again and again and again?
SEN. OBAMA: You know, George, look, if it's not this, then it
would be something else. I promise you, if Senator Clinton got the
nomination, there will be a whole bunch of video clips about other
things. In a general election, we know that there are going to be all
kinds of attacks launched and leveled. There have been quite a few
leveled in this primary campaign.
And I have confidence in the American people that when you talk
to the American people honestly and directly about what I believe in,
what my plans are on health care, on energy, when they see my track
record of the work that I've done on behalf of people who really need
help, I have absolute confidence that they can rally behind my
campaign.
And, you know, the notion that somehow that the American people
are going to be distracted once again by comments not made by me but
by somebody who is associated with me, that I have disowned, I think
doesn't give the American people enough credit.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: You've disowned him?
SEN. OBAMA: The comments, comments that I've disowned. Then
that is not something that I think --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But you do believe he's as patriotic as you
are?
SEN. OBAMA: This is somebody who's a former Marine. And so I
have -- I believe that he loves this country, but I also believe that
he's somebody who, because of the experiences he's had over the course
of a lifetime, is also angry about the injustices that he's seen.
MR. GIBSON: I'm getting a little out of balance here
At 00:00

Do you
want to take a few seconds, or do you want to go to the next question?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think, in addition to the questions about
Reverend Wright and what he said and when he said it, and for whatever
reason he might have said these things, there were so many different
variations on the explanations that we heard. And it is something
that I think deserves further exploration, because clearly what we've
got to figure out is how we're going to bring people together in a way
that overcomes the anger, overcomes the divisiveness and whatever
bitterness there may be out there.
It is clear that, as leaders, we have a choice who we associate
with and who we apparently give some kind of seal of approval to. And
I think that it wasn't only the specific remarks, but some of the
relationships with Reverend Farrakhan, with giving the church bulletin
over to the leader of Hamas to put a message in. You know, these are
problems, and they raise questions in people's minds.
And so this is a legitimate area, as everything is when we run
for office, for people to be exploring and trying to find answers.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, we also did a poll today,
and there are also questions about you raised in this poll. About six
in 10 voters that we talked to say they don't believe you're honest
and trustworthy. And we also asked a lot of Pennsylvania voters for
questions they had. A lot of them raised this honesty issue and your
comments about being under sniper fire in Bosnia.
Here's Tom Rooney from Pittsburgh.
Q Senator, I was in your court until a couple of weeks ago.
How do you reconcile the campaign of credibility that you have when
you've made those comments about what happened getting off the plane
in Bosnia, which totally misrepresented what really happened on that
day? You really lost my vote. And what can you tell me to get that
vote back?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, Tom, I can tell you that I may be a lot of
things, but I'm not dumb. And I wrote about going to Bosnia in my
book in 2004. I laid it all out there. And you're right. On a
couple of occasions in the last weeks I just said some things that
weren't in keeping with what I knew to be the case and what I had
written about in my book. And, you know, I'm embarrassed by it. I
have apologized for it. I've said it was a mistake. And it is, I
hope, something that you can look over, because clearly I am proud
that I went to Bosnia. It was a war zone.
General Wesley Clark is here in the audience with me as one of my
major supporters. He and I were talking about it before I came out.
You know, our soldiers were there to try to police and keep the peace
in a very dangerous area. They were totally in battle gear. There
were concerns about the potential dangers. The former president of
Bosnia has said that he was worried about the safety of the situation.
So I know that it is something that some people have said, "Wait
a minute. What happened here?" But I have talked about this and
written about it. And then, unfortunately, on a few occasions I was
not as accurate as I have been in the past.
But I know too that, you know, being able to rely on my
experience of having gone to Bosnia, gone to more than 80 countries,
having represented the United States in so many different settings
gives me a tremendous advantage going into this campaign, particularly
against Senator McCain.
So I will either try to get more sleep, Tom, or, you know, have
somebody who, you know, is there as a reminder to me. You know, you
can go back for the past 15 months. We both have said things that,
you know, turned out not to be accurate. You know, that happens when
you're talking as much as we have talked.
But you know, I'm very sorry that I said it. And I have said
that, you know, it just didn't jibe with what I had written about and
knew to be the truth.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, your campaign has sent out a
cascade of e-mails, just about every day, questioning Senator
Clinton's credibility. And you yourself have said she hasn't been
fully truthful about what she would do as president.
Do you believe that Senator Clinton has been fully truthful about
her past?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, look, I think that Senator Clinton has a
strong record to run on. She wouldn't be here if she didn't. And you
know, I haven't commented on the issue of Bosnia. You know, I --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Your campaign has
At 00:00

SEN. OBAMA: Of course, but --
SEN. CLINTON: (Laughs.)
SEN. OBAMA: Because we're asked about it.
But look, the fact of the matter is, is that both of us are
working as hard as we can to make sure that we're delivering a message
to the American people about what we would do as president.
Sometimes that message is going to be imperfectly delivered, because
we are recorded every minute of every day. And I think Senator
Clinton deserves, you know, the right to make some errors once in a
while. I'm -- obviously, I make some as well.
I think what's important is to make sure that we don't get so
obsessed with gaffes that we lose sight of the fact that this is a
defining moment in our history. We are going to be tackling some of
the biggest issues that any president has dealt with in the last 40
years. Our economy is teetering not just on the edge of recession,
but potentially worse. Our foreign policy is in a shambles. We are
involved in two wars. People's incomes have not gone up, and their
costs have. And we're seeing greater income inequality now than any
time since the 1920s.
In those circumstances, for us to be obsessed with this -- these
kinds of errors I think is a mistake. And that's not what our
campaign has been about.
What our campaign has been about is offering some specific solutions
to how we move these issues forward and identifying the need to change
the culture in Washington, which we haven't talked at all about, but
that has blocked real reform decade after decade after decade. That,
I think, is the job of the next president of the United States.
That's what I intend to do. That's why I'm running.
MR. GIBSON: And Senator Obama, I want to do one more question,
which goes to the basic issue of electability. And it is a question
raised by a voter in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, a woman by the name of
Nash McCabe. Take a look.
NASH MCCABE (Latrobe, Pennsylvania): (From videotape.) Senator
Obama, I have a question, and I want to know if you believe in the
American flag. I am not questioning your patriotism, but all our
servicemen, policemen and EMS wear the flag. I want to know why you
don't.
MR. GIBSON: Just to add to that, I noticed you put one on
yesterday. But -- you've talked about this before, but it comes up
again and again when we talk to voters. And as you may know, it is
all over the Internet. And it's something of a theme that Senators
Clinton and McCain's advisers agree could give you a major
vulnerability if you're the candidate in November. How do you
convince Democrats that this would not be a vulnerability?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, look, I revere the American flag, and I would
not be running for president if I did not revere this country. This
is -- I would not be standing here if it wasn't for this country.
And I've said this -- again, there's no other country in which my
story is even possible; somebody who was born to a teenage mom, raised
by a single mother and grandparents from small towns in Kansas, you
know, who was able to get an education and rise to the point where I
can run for the highest office in the land. I could not help but love
this country for all that it's given me.
And so what I've tried to do is to show my patriotism by how I
treat veterans when I'm working in the Senate Veterans Affairs
Committee; by making sure that I'm speaking forcefully about how we
need to bring this war in Iraq to a close, because I think it is not
serving our national security well and it's not serving our military
families and our troops well; talking about how we need to restore a
sense of economic fairness to this country because that's what this
country has always been about, is providing upward mobility and
ladders to opportunity for all Americans. That's what I love about
this country. And so I will continue to fight for those issues.
And I am absolutely confident that during the general election
that when I'm in a debate with John McCain, people are not going to be
questioning my patriotism, they are going to be questioning how can
you make people's lives a little bit better.
And let me just make one last point on this issue of the flag
pin. As you noted, I wore one yesterday when a veteran handed it to
me, who himself was disabled and works on behalf of disabled veterans.
I have never said that I don't wear flag pins or refuse to wear flag
pins. This is the kind of manufactured issue that our politics has
become obsessed with and, once again, distracts us from what should be
my job when I'm commander in chief, which is going to be figuring out
how we get our troops out of Iraq and how we actually make our economy
better for the American people.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator, if you get the nomination, you'll
have to -- (applause) -- (inaudible).
I want to give Senator Clinton a chance to respond, but first a
follow-up on this issue, the general theme of patriotism in your
relationships. A gentleman named William Ayers, he was part of the
Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the
Capitol and other buildings. He's never apologized for that. And in
fact, on 9/11 he was quoted in The New York Times saying, "I don't
regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."
An early organizing meeting for your state senate campaign was
held at his house, and your campaign has said you are friendly. Can
you explain that relationship for the voters, and explain to Democrats
why it won't be a problem?
SEN. OBAMA: George, but this is an example of what I'm talking
about.
This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of
English in Chicago, who I know and who I have not received some
official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas
from on a regular basis.
And the notion that somehow as a consequence of me knowing
somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago when I was 8
years old, somehow reflects on me and my values, doesn't make much
sense, George.
The fact is, is that I'm also friendly with Tom Coburn, one of
the most conservative Republicans in the United States Senate, who
during his campaign once said that it might be appropriate to apply
the death penalty to those who carried out abortions.
Do I need to apologize for Mr. Coburn's statements? Because I
certainly don't agree with those either.
So this kind of game, in which anybody who I know, regardless of
how flimsy the relationship is, is somehow -- somehow their ideas
could be attributed to me -- I think the American people are smarter
than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is
reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't.
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think that is a fair general statement,
but I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers
for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid
directorship position
At 00:00

And if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this
board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were
deeply hurtful to people in New York, and I would hope to every
American, because they were published on 9/11 and he said that he was
just sorry they hadn't done more. And what they did was set bombs and
in some instances people died. So it is -- you know, I think it is,
again, an issue that people will be asking about. And I have no doubt
-- I know Senator Obama's a good man and I respect him greatly but I
think that this is an issue that certainly the Republicans will be
raising.
And it goes to this larger set of concerns about, you know, how
we are going to run against John McCain. You know, I wish the
Republicans would apologize for the disaster of the Bush-Cheney years
and not run anybody, just say that it's time for the Democrats to go
back into the White House. (Laughter, applause.)
know that they're going to be out there, full force. And you know,
I've been in this arena for a long time. I have a lot of baggage, and
everybody has rummaged through it for years. (Laughter.) And so
therefore, I have, you know, an opportunity to come to this campaign
with a very strong conviction and feeling that I will be able to
withstand whatever the Republican sends our way.
SEN. OBAMA: I'm going to have to respond to this just really
quickly, but by Senator Clinton's own vetting standards, I don't think
she would make it, since President Clinton pardoned or commuted the
sentences of two members of the Weather Underground, which I think is
a slightly more significant act than me --
AUDIENCE MEMBER: (Applauds.)
MR. GIBSON: Please
At 00:00

SEN. OBAMA: -- than me serving on a board with somebody for
actions that he did 40 years ago.
Look, there is no doubt that the Republicans will attack either
of us. What I've been able to display during the course of this
primary is that I can take a punch. I've taken some pretty good ones
from Senator Clinton. And I don't begrudge her that. That's part of
what the political contest is about.
I am looking forward to having a debate with John McCain, and I
think every poll indicates that I am doing just as well, if not
better, in pulling together the coalition that will defeat John
McCain.
And when it comes to November, and people are going into the
polling place, they're going to be asking, are we going to go through
four more years of George Bush economic policies; are we going to go
through four more years of George Bush foreign policy?
And if we as Democrats and if I as the nominee have put forward a
clear vision for how we're going to move the country forward, deal
with issues like energy dependence, lower gas prices, provide health
care, get our troops out of Iraq, that is a debate that I'm happy to
have and a debate that I'm confident I can win.
MR. GIBSON: And Senator Clinton, I'm getting out of balance in
terms of time.
SEN. CLINTON: I've noticed. (Laughs.)
MR. GIBSON: And you're getting shortchanged here
At 00:00

And so if you
want to reply here, fine. If you want to wait, we'll do it in the
next half hour.
SEN. CLINTON: We can wait.
MR. GIBSON: All right
At 00:00

We will take a commercial break. We will come back. And the
Democratic debate, from the city of Philadelphia before the
Pennsylvania primary, will continue. Stay with us. (Applause.)
(Announcements.)
MR. GIBSON: Another quote from the Constitution, apropos because
we are here, as you heard just a moment ago, at the Constitution
Center.
Senator Clinton, a question for you. We talked about the
military applications from the Constitution and this is a question
that involves the war in Iraq. It comes from Mandy Garber of
Pittsburgh. Take a look.
MANDY GARBER (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania): So, the real question
is, I mean, do the candidates have a real plan to get us out of Iraq
or is it just real campaign propaganda? And you know, it's really
unclear. They keep saying we want to bring the troops back, but
considering what's happening on the ground, how is that going to
happen?
MR. GIBSON: Let me just add a little bit to that question,
because your communications director in your campaign, Howard Wolfson
on a conference call recently was asked, "Is Senator Clinton going to
stick to her announced plan of bringing one or two brigades out of
Iraq every month whatever the realities on the ground?" And Wolfson
said, "I'm giving you a one-word answer so we can be clear about it,
the answer is yes."
So if the military commanders in Iraq came to you on day one and
said this kind of withdrawal would destabilize Iraq, it would set back
all of the gains that we have made, no matter what, you're going to
order those troops to come home?
SEN. CLINTON: Yes, I am, Charlie. And here's why: You know,
thankfully we have a system in our country of civilian control of the
military. And our professional military are the best in the world.
They give their best advice and then they execute the policies of the
president. I have watched this president as he has continued to
change the rationale and move the goalposts when it comes to Iraq.
And I am convinced that it is in America's best interest, it is
in the best interest of our military, and I even believe it is in the
best interest of Iraq, that upon taking office, I will ask the
secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff and my security
advisers to immediately put together for me a plan so that I can begin
to withdraw within 60 days. I will make it very clear that we will do
so in a responsible and careful manner, because obviously, withdrawing
troops and equipment is dangerous.
I will also make it clear to the Iraqis that they no longer have
a blank check from the president of the United States, because I
believe that it will be only through our commitment to withdraw that
the Iraqis will begin to do what they have failed to do for all of
these years.
I will also begin an intensive diplomatic effort, both within the
region and internationally, to begin to try to get other countries to
understand the stakes that we all face when it comes to the future of
Iraq.
But I have been convinced and very clear that I will begin to
withdraw troops within 60 days. And we've had other instances in our
history where some military commanders have been very publicly opposed
to what a president was proposing to do.
But I think it's important that this decision be made, and I intend to
make it.
MR. GIBSON: But Senator Clinton, aren't you saying -- I mean,
General Petraeus was in Washington
At 00:00

You both were there when he
testified, saying that the gains in Iraq are fragile and are
reversible. Are you essentially saying, "I know better than the
military commanders here"?
SEN. CLINTON: No, what I'm saying, Charlie, is that no one can
predict what will happen. There are many different scenarios. But
one thing I am sure of is that our staying in Iraq, our continuing to
lose our men and women in uniform, having many injured, the Iraqi
casualties that we are seeing as well, is -- is no way for us to
maintain a strong position in the world.
It's not only about Iraq. It is about ending the war in Iraq, so
that we can begin paying attention to all of the other problems we
have. There isn't any doubt that Afghanistan has been neglected. It
has not gotten the resources that it needs. We hear that from our
military commanders responsible for that region of the world. And
there are other problems that we have failed to address.
So the bottom line for me is, we don't know what will happen as
we withdraw. We do know what will happen if we stay mired in Iraq.
The Iraqi government will not accept responsibility for its own
future.
Our military will continue to be stretched thin, and our soldiers will
be on their second, third, even their fourth deployment. And we will
not be able to reassert our leadership and our moral authority in the
world.
And I think those are the kind of broad issues that a president
has to take into account.
MR. GIBSON: And Senator Obama, your campaign manager, David
Plouffe, said, when he is -- this is talking about you -- when he is
elected president, we will be out of Iraq in 16 months at the most;
there should be no confusion about that.
So you'd give the same rock-hard pledge, that no matter what the
military commanders said, you would give the order: Bring them home.
SEN. OBAMA: Because the commander in chief sets the mission,
Charlie. That's not the role of the generals. And one of the things
that's been interesting about the president's approach lately has been
to say, well, I'm just taking cues from General Petraeus.
Well, the president sets the mission. The general and our troops
carry out that mission. And unfortunately we have had a bad mission,
set by our civilian leadership, which our military has performed
brilliantly. But it is time for us to set a strategy that is going to
make the American people safer.
Now, I will always listen to our commanders on the ground with
respect to tactics. Once I've given them a new mission, that we are
going to proceed deliberately in an orderly fashion out of Iraq and we
are going to have our combat troops out, we will not have permanent
bases there, once I've provided that mission, if they come to me and
want to adjust tactics, then I will certainly take their
recommendations into consideration; but ultimately the buck stops with
me as the commander in chief.
And what I have to look at is not just the situation in Iraq, but
the fact that we continue to see al Qaeda getting stronger in
Afghanistan and in Pakistan, we continue to see anti-American
sentiment fanned all cross the Middle East, we are overstretched in a
way -- we do not have a strategic reserve at this point. If there was
another crisis that was taking place, we would not have a brigade that
we could send to deal with that crisis that isn't already scheduled to
be deployed in Iraq. That is not sustainable. That's not smart
national security policy, and it's going to change when I'm president.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, let's stay in the region.
Iran continues to pursue a nuclear option. Those weapons, if they got
them, would probably pose the greatest threat to Israel. During the
Cold War, it was the United States policy to extend deterrence to our
NATO allies. An attack on Great Britain would be treated as if it
were an attack on the United States.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, our first step should be to keep nuclear
weapons out of the hands of the Iranians, and that has to be one of
our top priorities. And I will make it one of our top priorities when
I'm president of the United States.
I have said I will do whatever is required to prevent the
Iranians from obtaining nuclear weapons. I believe that that includes
direct talks with the Iranians where we are laying out very clearly
for them, here are the issues that we find unacceptable, not only
development of nuclear weapons but also funding terrorist
organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah, as well as their anti-Israel
rhetoric and threats towards Israel. I believe that we can offer them
carrots and sticks, but we've got to directly engage and make
absolutely clear to them what our posture is.
Now, my belief is that they should also know that I will take no
options off the table when it comes to preventing them from using
nuclear weapons or obtaining nuclear weapons, and that would include
any threats directed at Israel or any of our allies in the region.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: So you would extend our deterrent to Israel?
SEN. OBAMA: As I've said before, I think it is very important
that Iran understands that an attack on Israel is an attack on our
strongest ally in the region, one that we -- one whose security we
consider paramount, and that -- that would be an act of aggression
that we -- that I would -- that I would consider an attack that is
unacceptable, and the United States would take appropriate action.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, would you?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, in fact, George, I think that we should be
looking to create an umbrella of deterrence that goes much further
than just Israel. Of course I would make it clear to the Iranians
that an attack on Israel would incur massive retaliation from the
United States, but I would do the same with other countries in the
region.
You know, we are at a very dangerous point with Iran. The Bush
policy has failed. Iran has not been deterred. They continue to try
to not only obtain the fissile material for nuclear weapons but they
are intent upon and using their efforts to intimidate the region and
to have their way when it comes to the support of terrorism in Lebanon
and elsewhere.
And I think that this is an opportunity, with skillful diplomacy,
for the United States to go to the region and enlist the region in a
security agreement vis-a-vis Iran. It would give us three tools we
don't now have.
Number one, we've got to begin diplomatic engagement with Iran,
and we want the region and the world to understand how serious we are
about it. And I would begin those discussions at a low level. I
certainly would not meet with Ahmadinejad, because even again today he
made light of 9/11 and said he's not even sure it happened and that
people actually died. He's not someone who would have an opportunity
to meet with me in the White House. But I would have a diplomatic
process that would engage him.
And secondly, we've got to deter other countries from feeling
that they have to acquire nuclear weapons. You can't go to the Saudis
or the Kuwaitis or UAE and others who have a legitimate concern about
Iran and say: Well, don't acquire these weapons to defend yourself
unless you're also willing to say we will provide a deterrent backup
and we will let the Iranians know that. Yes, an attack on Israel
would trigger massive retaliation, but so would an attack on those
countries that are willing to go under this security umbrella and
forswear their own nuclear ambitions.
And finally we cannot permit Iran to become a nuclear weapons
power. And this administration has failed in our efforts to convince
the rest of the world that that is a danger, not only to us and not
just to Israel but to the region and beyond.
Therefore we have got to have this process that reaches out,
beyond even who we would put under the security umbrella, to get the
rest of the world on our side to try to impose the kind of sanctions
and diplomatic efforts that might prevent this from occurring.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me turn to the economy
At 00:00

That is the
number one issue on Americans' minds right now.
Yesterday, Senator McCain singled that the number one issue, in
the general election campaign on the economy, is going to be taxes.
And he says that both of you are going to raise taxes, not just on the
wealthy but on everyone. Here's what he said in his speech yesterday.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): (Pre-recorded remarks.) All these tax
increases are under the fine print of the slogan: hope.
They're going to raise your taxes by thousands of dollars a year.
And they have the audacity to hope you don't mind.
(Laughter.)
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, two-part question.
Two-part question: Can you make an absolute, read-my-lips pledge
that there will be no tax increases of any kind for anyone earning
under $200,000 a year?
And if the economy is as weak a year from now as it is today, will you
-- will you persist in your plans to roll back President Bush's tax
cuts for wealthier Americans?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, George, I have made a commitment that I will
let the taxes on people making more than $250,000 a year go back to
the rates that they were paying in the 1990s.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Even if the economy is weak?
SEN. CLINTON: Yes. And here's why: Number one, I do not
believe that it will detrimentally affect the economy by doing that.
As I recall, you know, we used that tool during the 1990s to very good
effect and I think we can do so again.
I am absolutely committed to not raising a single tax on middle
class Americans, people making less than $250,000 a year. In fact, I
have a very specific plan of $100 billion in tax cuts that would go to
help people afford health care, security retirement plans, you know,
make it possible for people to get long-term care insurance and care
for their parents and grandparents who they are trying to support,
making college affordable and so much else.
Well, if you look at how we'd have to sequence that, we might not
be able to do all of that at once. But if you go to my website,
HillaryClinton.com, it is laid out there how I will pay for
everything, because everything I have proposed, I have put in how I
would pay for it.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: An absolute commitment, no middle-class tax
increases of any kind.
SEN. CLINTON: No, that's right. That is my commitment.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Obama?
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Would you take the same pledge?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, I not only have pledged not to raise their
taxes, I've been the first candidate in this race to specifically say
I would cut their taxes.
And one of the centerpieces of my economic plan would be to say
that we are going to offset the payroll tax, the most regressive of
our taxes, so that families who are earning -- who are middle-income
individuals making $75,000 a year or less, that they would get a tax
break so that families would see up to a thousand dollars worth of
relief.
Senior citizens who have earnings of less than $50,000 wouldn't
have to pay income tax on their Social Security. And middle-class
homeowners who currently don't itemize on their tax filings, they
would be able to get a deduction the same way that wealthy individuals
do.
Now, here's the reason why that's important. We have seen wages
and incomes flat or declining at a time when costs have gone up. And
one of the things that we've learned from George Bush's economic
policies, which John McCain now wants to follow, is that pain trickles
up. And so, partly because people have been strapped and have had a
tough time making ends meet, we're now seeing a deteriorating housing
market.
That's also as a consequence of the lack of oversight and regulation
of these banks and financial institutions that gave loans that they
shouldn't have. And part of it has to do with the fact that you had
$185 million by mortgage lenders spent on lobbyists and special
interests who were writing these laws.
So the rules in Washington -- the tax code has been written on
behalf of the well connected. Our trade laws have -- same thing has
happened. And part of how we're going to be able to deliver on
middle-class tax relief is to change how business is done in
Washington. And that's been a central focus of our campaign.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Obama, you both have now just taken this
pledge on people under $250,000 and 200-and-what, 250,000.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, it depends on how you calculate it. But it
would be between 200 and 250,000.
MR. GIBSON: All right
At 00:00

You have however said you would favor an increase in the capital
gains tax. As a matter of fact, you said on CNBC, and I quote, "I
certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which
was 28 percent."
It's now 15 percent. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28
percent. But actually Bill Clinton in 1997 signed legislation that
dropped the capital gains tax to 20 percent.
SEN. OBAMA: Right.
MR. GIBSON: And George Bush has taken it down to 15 percent
At 00:00

SEN. OBAMA: Right.
MR. GIBSON: And in each instance, when the rate dropped,
revenues from the tax increased. The government took in more money.
And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28 percent, the
revenues went down. So why raise it at all, especially given the fact
that 100 million people in this country own stock and would be
affected?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look
at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. We saw an
article today which showed that the top 50 hedge fund managers made
$29 billion last year -- $29 billion for 50 individuals. And part of
what has happened is that those who are able to work the stock market
and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate
than their secretaries. That's not fair.
And what I want is not oppressive taxation. I want businesses to
thrive and I want people to be rewarded for their success. But what I
also want to make sure is that our tax system is fair and that we are
able to finance health care for Americans who currently don't have it
and that we're able to invest in our infrastructure and invest in our
schools.
And you can't do that for free, and you can't take out a credit
card from the Bank of China in the name of our children and our
grandchildren and then say that you're cutting taxes, which is
essentially what John McCain has been talking about. And that is
irresponsible.
You know, I believe in the principle that you pay as you go, and
you don't propose tax cuts unless you are closing other tax breaks for
individuals. And you don't increase spending unless you're
eliminating some spending or you're finding some new revenue. That's
how we got an additional $4 trillion worth of debt under George Bush.
That is helping to undermine our economy, and it's going to change
when I'm president of the United States.
MR. GIBSON: But history shows that when you drop the capital
gains tax, the revenues go up.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends
on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going. I think
the biggest problem that we've got on Wall Street right now is the
fact that we've got a housing crisis that this president has not been
attentive to and that it took John McCain three tries before he got it
right.
And if we can stabilize that market and we can get credit flowing
again, then I think we'll see stocks do well, and once again I think
we can generate the revenue that we need to run this government and
hopefully to pay down some of this debt.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Clinton
At 00:00

SEN. CLINTON: Well, let me start by saying that I think we know
that we've got to get back to an economy that works for everyone. The
president has been very good for people who are doing well, and that's
great. But it was better for our country when we had an economy that
lifted everyone up at the same time, and we had that during the 1990s;
you know, 22.7 million new jobs, more people lifted out of poverty
than any time in our recent history. A typical family saw a $7,000
increase in income.
And we have lost that. You know, now the typical family has lost
at least $1,000. And the fact is that, you know, I don't want to take
one more penny of tax money from anybody. But what I want to do is
make some smart investments. And I was the first to come out with a
strategic energy fund, where we need to be investing in clean
renewable energy. And I think we could put 5 million Americans to
work.
I think we have to invest in our infrastructure. That also will
get the economy moving again, and I believe we could put about 3
million people to work in good union jobs where people get a good wage
with a good set of benefits that can support a middle-class family
with a rising standard of living.
I want to see us actually tackle the housing crisis, something
I've been talking about for over a year. If I had been president a
year ago, I believe we would have begun to avoid some of the worst of
the mortgage and credit crisis, because we would have started much
earlier than we have -- in fact, I don't think we've really done very
much at all yet -- in dealing with a way of freezing home
foreclosures, of freezing interest rates, getting money into
communities to be able to withstand the problems that are caused by
foreclosures.
Governor Rendell has done a great job in Pennsylvania
At 00:00

He saw
this coming. And unlike our current president, who either didn't know
it or didn't care about it, he has really held the line, and
Pennsylvania has been much less affected by home foreclosures. But
the president hasn't done that, and what I have proposed would do
that.
So you've got to look at the entire economy. And from my
perspective, yes, taxes is a piece of it. But you've got to figure
out what is it we would invest in that would make us richer and safer
and stronger tomorrow, which would (be ?) helping everybody.
MR. GIBSON: I'm going to go to a commercial break
At 00:00

But I just
want to come back to one thing you said, and I want to be clear. The
question was about capital gains tax. Would you say, "No, I'm not
going to raise capital gains taxes"?
SEN. CLINTON: I wouldn't raise it above the 20 percent if I
raised it at all. I would not raise it above what it was during the
Clinton administration.
MR. GIBSON: "If I raised it at all
At 00:00

" Would you propose an
increase in the capital gains tax?
SEN. CLINTON: You know, Charlie, I'm going to have to look and
see what the revenue situation is. You know, we now have the largest
budget deficit we've ever had, $311 billion. We went from a $5.6
trillion projected surplus to what we have today, which is a $9
trillion debt.
I don't want to raise taxes on anybody. I'm certainly against
one of Senator Obama's ideas, which is to lift the cap on the payroll
tax, because that would impose additional taxes on people who are, you
know, educators here in the Philadelphia area or in the suburbs,
police officers, firefighters and the like.
So I think we have to be very careful about how we navigate this.
So the $250,000 mark is where I am sure we're going. But beyond that,
we're going to have to look and see where we are.
MR. GIBSON: Very quickly, because I owe Senator Clinton time,
but, yeah, you wanted to respond.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, Charlie, I just have to respond real quickly
to Senator Clinton's last comment. What I have proposed is that we
raise the cap on the payroll tax, because right now millionaires and
billionaires don't have to pay beyond $97,000 a year.
That's where it's kept. Now most firefighters, most teachers, you
know, they're not making over $100,000 a year. In fact, only 6
percent of the population does. And I've also said that I'd be
willing to look at exempting people who are making slightly above
that.
But understand the alternative is that because we're going to
have fewer workers to more retirees, if we don't do anything on Social
Security, then those benefits will effectively be cut, because we'll
be running out of money.
MR. GIBSON: But Senator, that's a tax. That's a tax on people
under $250,000.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, no, look, let me -- let me finish my point
here, Charlie. Senator Clinton just said she certainly wouldn't do
this; this was a bad idea. In Iowa she, when she was outside of
camera range, said to an individual there she'd certainly consider the
idea. And then that was recorded, and she apparently wasn't aware
that it was being recorded.
So this is an option that I would strongly consider, because the
alternatives, like raising the retirement age, or cutting benefits, or
raising the payroll tax on everybody, including people who make less
than $97,000 a year --
MR. GIBSON: But there's a heck of a lot of --
SEN. OBAMA: -- those are not good policy options.
MR. GIBSON: Those are a heck of a lot of people between $97,000
and $200(,000) and $250,000. If you raise the payroll taxes, that's
going to raise taxes on them.
SEN. OBAMA: And that's -- and that's -- and that's why I've
said, Charlie, that I would look at potentially exempting those who
are in between.
But the point is, we're going to have to capture some revenue in
order to stabilize the Social Security system. You can't -- you can't
get something for nothing. And if we care about Social Security,
which I do, and if we are firm in our commitment to make sure that
it's going to be there for the next generation, and not just for our
generation, then we have an obligation to figure out how to stabilize
the system.
And I think we should be honest in presenting our ideas in terms of
how we're going to do that and not just say that we're going to form a
commission and try to solve the problem some other way.
SEN. CLINTON: Well, in fact, I am totally committed to making
sure Social Security is solvent. If we had stayed on the path we were
on at the end of my husband's administration, we sure would be in a
lot better position because we had a plan to extend the life of the
Social Security Trust Fund and again, President Bush decided that that
wasn't a priority, that the war in Iraq and tax cuts for the
wealthiest of Americans were his priorities, neither of which he's
ever paid for. I think it's the first time we've ever been taken to
war and had a president who wouldn't pay for it.
But when it comes to Social Security, fiscal responsibility is
the first and most important step. You've got to begin to reign in
the budget, pay as you go, to try to replenish our Social Security
Trust Fund.
And with all due respect, the last time we had a crisis in Social
Security was 1983. President Reagan and Speaker Tip O'Neill came up
with a commission. That was the best and smartest way, because you've
got to get Republicans and Democrats together.
That's what I will do. And I will say, number one, don't cut
benefits on current beneficiaries; they're already having a hard
enough time. And number two, do not impose additional tax burdens on
middle-class families.
There are lots of ways we can fix Social Security that don't impose
those burdens, and I will do that.
SEN. OBAMA: That commission raised the retirement age, Charlie,
and also raised the payroll tax. And so Senator Clinton, if she --
she can't have it both ways. You can't come at me for proposing a
solution that will save Social Security without burdening middle-
income Americans, and then suggest that somehow she's got a magic
solution.
SEN. CLINTON: But there are more progressive ways of doing it
than, you know, lifting the cap. And I think we'll work it out. I
have every confidence we're going to work it out. I know that we can
make this happen.
MR. GIBSON: On that point, we're going to take a break, a
commercial break. The Democratic debate from here in Philadelphia
before the Pennsylvania primary will continue. Stay with us. We'll
be back. (Applause.)
(Announcements.)
MR. GIBSON: Back to the Philadelphia Debate, the Democratic
Debate, just less than a week now before the Pennsylvania primary.
And I would be remiss tonight if I didn't take note of the fact
that today is the one-year anniversary of Virginia Tech. And I think
it's fair to say that probably every American during this day, at one
point or another, said a small prayer for the great people at that
university and for those who died.
It also, I suspect, makes this an appropriate time to talk about
guns. And it has not been talked about much in this campaign and it's
an important issue in the state of Pennsylvania.
Both of you, in the past, have supported strong gun control
measures. But now when I listen to you on the campaign, I hear you
emphasizing that you believe in an individual's right to bear arms.
Both of you were strong advocates for licensing of guns. Both of
you were strong advocates for the registration of guns.
Why don't you emphasize that now, Senator Clinton?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, Charlie, on Friday, I was with Mayor Nutter,
who's here, in West Philadelphia at the YMCA there, to talk about what
we could do together to bring down the crime rate that has ravaged
Philadelphia.
You know, more than one person, on average, a day is murdered in
Philadelphia. And Mayor Nutter is very committed, as the mayor of
this great city, to try to do what he can to stem the violence.
And what I said then is what I have been saying, that I will be a
good partner, for cities like Philadelphia, as president. Because I
will bring back the COPS program, the so-called COPS program, where we
had 100,000 police on the street, which really helped drive down the
crime rate and also helped create better community relations.
I will also work to reinstate the assault weapons ban. We had it
during the 1990s. It really was an aid to our police officers, who
are now once again, because it has lapsed -- the Republicans will not
reinstate it -- are being outgunned on our streets by these military-
style weapons.
I will also work to make sure that police departments in
Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg, across America get access to the
federal information that will enable them to track illegal guns,
because the numbers are astounding. Probably 80 percent of the guns
used in gun crimes are in the hands of that criminal, that gang member
-- unfortunately, people who are sometimes, you know, mentally
challenged -- because it got there illegally. And under the
Republicans, that information was kept from local law enforcement.
So I believe that we can balance what I think is the right
equation. I respect the Second Amendment. I respect the rights of
lawful gun owners to own guns, to use their guns, but I also believe
that most lawful gun owners whom I have spoken with for many years
across our country also want to be sure that we keep those guns out of
the wrong hands.
And as president, I will work to try to bridge this divide, which I
think has been polarizing and, frankly, doesn't reflect the common
sense of the American people.
So we will strike the right balance to protect the constitutional
right but to give people the feeling and the reality that they will be
protected from guns in the wrong hands.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Obama, the District of Columbia has a law,
it's had a law since 1976, it's now before the United States Supreme
Court, that prohibits ownership of handguns, a sawed-off shotgun, a
machine gun or a short-barreled rifle. Is that law consistent with an
individual's right to bear arms?
SEN. OBAMA: Charlie, I confess I obviously haven't listened to
the briefs and looked at all the evidence. As a general principle, I
believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear
arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean
that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of
that right, and, you know, in the same way that we have a right to
private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances
that determine how you can use it.
And I think that it is going to be important for us to reconcile
what are two realities in this country. There's the reality of gun
ownership and the tradition of gun ownership that's passed on from
generation to generation.
think has been polarizing and, frankly, doesn't reflect the common
sense of the American people.
So we will strike the right balance to protect the constitutional
right but to give people the feeling and the reality that they will be
protected from guns in the wrong hands.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Obama, the District of Columbia has a law,
it's had a law since 1976, it's now before the United States Supreme
Court, that prohibits ownership of handguns, a sawed-off shotgun, a
machine gun or a short-barreled rifle. Is that law consistent with an
individual's right to bear arms?
SEN. OBAMA: Charlie, I confess I obviously haven't listened to
the briefs and looked at all the evidence. As a general principle, I
believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear
arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean
that the state or local government can't constrain the exercise of
that right, and, you know, in the same way that we have a right to
private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances
that determine how you can use it.
And I think that it is going to be important for us to reconcile
what are two realities in this country. There's the reality of gun
ownership and the tradition of gun ownership that's passed on from
generation to generation.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, you have a home in D.C.
Do you support the D.C. ban?
SEN. CLINTON: You know, George, I want to give local communities
the opportunity to have some authority over determining how to keep
their citizens safe.
This case you're referring to, before the Supreme Court, is
apparently dividing the Bush administration. You know, the Bush
administration basically said, we don't have enough facts to know
whether or not it is appropriate.
And Vice President Cheney who, you know, is a fourth special
branch of government all unto himself -- (laughter) -- has actually
filed a brief saying, oh, no, we have to, you know, we have to prevent
D.C. from doing this.
So --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But what do you think? Do you support it or
not?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, what I support is sensible regulation that
is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Is the D
At 00:00

C. ban consistent with that right?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think a total ban, with no exceptions
under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But I
don't know the facts.
But I don't think that should blow open a hole that says that
D.C. or Philadelphia or anybody else cannot come up with sensible
regulations to protect their people and keep, you know, machine guns
and assault weapons out of the hands of folks who shouldn't have them.
MR. GIBSON: Well, with all due respect, and I'm not sure I got
an answer from Senator Obama. But do you still favor licensing and
registration of handguns?
SEN. CLINTON: What I favor is what works in New York. You know,
we have a set of rules in New York City and we have a totally
different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in
New York City is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the
federal government to be having any kind of, you know, blanket rules
that they're going to try to impose, I think doesn't make sense.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But Senator, you were for that when you ran
for Senate in New York.
SEN. CLINTON: I was for -- I was for the New York rules, that's
right. I was for the New York rules because they have worked over
time. And there isn't a lot of uproar in New York about changing them,
because I go to upstate New York, where we have a lot of hunters and
people who are collectors and people who are sport shooters; they have
every reason to believe that their rights are being respected. You
walk down the street with a police officer in Manhattan; he wants to
be sure that there is some way of protecting him and protecting the
people that are in his charge.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, last May we talked about
affirmative action, ad you said at the time that affluent African
Americans like your daughters should probably be treated as pretty
advantaged when they apply to college, and that poor white children --
kids -- should get special consideration, affirmative action.
So, as president, how specifically would you recommend changing
affirmative action policies so that affluent African Americans are not
given advantages, and poor, less affluent whites are?
SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think that the basic principle that should
guide discussions not just on affirmative action but how we are
admitting young people to college generally is, how do we make sure
that we're providing ladders of opportunity for people? How do we
make sure that every child in America has a decent shot in pursuing
their dreams?
And race is still a factor in our society. And I think that for
universities and other institutions to say, you know, we're going to
take into account the hardships that somebody has experienced because
they're black or Latino or because they're women --
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Even if they're wealthy?
SEN. OBAMA: I think that's something that they can take into
account, but it can only be in the context of looking at the whole
situation of the young person. So if they look at my child and they
say, you know, Malia and Sasha, they've had a pretty good deal, then
that shouldn't be factored in. On the other hand, if there's a young
white person who has been working hard, struggling, and has overcome
great odds, that's something that should be taken into account.
So I still believe in affirmative action as a means of overcoming
both historic and potentially current discrimination, but I think that
it can't be a quota system and it can't be something that is simply
applied without looking at the whole person, whether that person is
black or white or Hispanic, male or female.
What we want to do is make sure that people who have been locked out
of opportunity are going to be able to walk through those doors of
opportunity in the future.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Clinton, would you agree to that
kind of change?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, here's the way I'd prefer to think about it.
I think we've got to have affirmative action generally to try to
give more opportunities to young people from disadvantaged backgrounds
-- whoever they are. That's why I'm a strong supporter of early
childhood education and universal pre-kindergarten.
That's why I'm against No Child Left Behind as it is currently
operating. And I would end it, because we can do so much better to
have an education system that really focuses in on kids who need extra
help.
That's why I'm in favor of much more college aid, not these
outrageous predatory student loan rates that are charging people I've
met, across Pennsylvania, 20, 25, 28 percent interest rates. Let's
make college affordable again.
See, I think we have to look at what we're trying to achieve here
somewhat differently. We do have a real gap. We have a gap in
achievement. We have a gap in income. But we don't have a potential
gap.
I think our job should be to try to create the conditions that
enable people to live up to their God-given potential. And that means
health care for everyone -- no exceptions, nobody left out. And it
means taking a hard look at what we need to do to compete and win in
the global economy.
So that's how I prefer to think about it. You know, let's
affirmatively invest in our young people and make it possible for them
to have a good middle-class life in today's much more competitive
economy.
MR. GIBSON: We're running short on time
At 00:00

Let me just give some
quick questions here, and let me give you a minute each to answer.
What are you going to do about gas prices? It's getting to $4 a
gallon. It is killing truckers.
SEN. CLINTON: That's right.
MR. GIBSON: People are in trouble
At 00:00

And yet the whole world pays
a whole lot more for gas than we do. What are you going to do about
it?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I met with a group of truckers in Harrisburg
about a week and a half ago, and here's what I told them. Number one,
we are going to investigate these gas prices. The federal government
has certain tools that this administration will not use, in the
Federal Trade Commission and other ways, through the Justice
Department, because I believe there is market manipulation going on,
particularly among energy traders. We've seen this movie before, in
Enron, and we've got to get to the bottom to make sure we're not being
taken advantage of.
Number two, I would quit putting oil into the Strategic Petroleum
Reserve and I would release some to help drive the price down
globally.
And thirdly, if there is any kind of gas tax moratorium, as some
people are now proposing --
MR. GIBSON: Like John McCain
At 00:00

SEN. CLINTON: -- like John McCain, and some Democrats, frankly
-- I think Senator Menendez and others have said that we may have to
do something, because when you get to $4-a-gallon gas, people are not
going to be able to afford to drive to work. And what I would like to
see us do is to say if we have that, then we should have a windfall
profits tax on these outrageous profits of the oil companies, and put
that money back into the highway trust fund, so that we don't lose out
on repair and construction and rebuilding.
But ultimately, Charlie, we've got to have a long-term energy
strategy. We are so much more dependent on foreign oil today than we
were on 9/11, and that is a real indictment of our leadership. And
I've laid out a comprehensive plan to move us toward energy
independence that I hope I will have the opportunity to implement as
president.
MR. GIBSON: Very quickly, Senator Obama, I -- the same thing.
But we've heard from politicians for a long time we're going to end
dependence on foreign oil. I just have a quote: "The generation-long
growth in our dependence on foreign oil will be stopped dead in its
tracks right now." That was Jimmy Carter in 1979. And it's gotten a
whole lot worse since then.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, you're right. And that's why people are
cynical, because decade after decade, we talk about energy policy or
we talk about health care policy, and through Democratic and
Republican administrations, nothing gets done.
Now, I think many of the steps that Senator Clinton outlined are
similar to the plans that we talked about. It is absolutely true that
we've got to investigate potential price gouging or market
manipulation. I have strongly called for a windfall profits tax that
can provide both consumers relief and also invest in renewable
energies.
I think that long term, we're going to have to raise fuel
efficiency standards on cars, because the only way that we're going to
be able to reduce gas prices is if we reduce demand. You've still got
a billion people in China, and maybe 700 million in India, who still
want cars. And so the long-term trajectory is that we're going to
have to get serious about increasing our fuel efficiency standards and
investing in new technologies.
That's something I'm committed to doing. I've talked about spending
$150 billion over 10 years in an Apollo Project, a Manhattan Project
to create the alternative energy strategies that will work not only
for this generation but for the next.
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: We're running out of time for this segment
At 00:00

Very quickly, for each of you, 30 seconds. Senator Clinton, you've
said that you believe in using former presidents. How would you use
George W. Bush if you were president? (Laughter.)
SEN. CLINTON: I'm going to have to give some serious thought to
that. (Laughter.) You know, I do believe that it's a way to unify
our country. I thought that President Bush was right when he asked
his father and Bill to represent us during the aftermath of the
tsunami. I thought it sent a great message here at home and around
the world. And I'm sure that there will be opportunities to ask all
the former presidents to work on behalf of our nation.
You know, we've got to come together. And the former presidents
really exemplify that, whether one agrees with them politically or
not. When they're all together, representing our country, that sends
a strong message. And I would look for a way to use all our former
presidents, but that'll take some careful thought on my part.
(Laughter.)
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama
At 00:00

SEN. OBAMA: Well, you know, I think that having the advice and
counsel of all former presidents is important. I'm probably more
likely to advice of the current president's father than president
himself because I think that when you look back at George H.W. Bush's
foreign policy, it was a wise foreign policy.
And how we executed the Gulf War, how we managed the transition out of
the Cold War, I think, is an example of how we can get bipartisan
agreement. I don't think the Democrats have a monopoly on good ideas.
I think that there are a lot of thoughtful Republicans out there.
The problem is, we've been locked in a divided politics for so
long that we've stopped listening to each other. And I think that
this president in particular has fed those divisions. That's
something that we've tried to end in this campaign, and I think we're
being successful.
MR. GIBSON: All right
At 00:00

We're going to take one more commercial break, come back with a
final question for both of you in just a moment.
(Announcements.)
MR. GIBSON: Final question, now, to finish what I think has been
a fascinating debate, and I appreciate both of you being here --
thanking you in advance.
I -- it is hard to see how either one of you win this nomination
on the basis of pledged delegates in primaries. And it could well
come down to superdelegates. And I know you've been talking to them
all along. But let's say you're at the convention in Denver, and
you're talking to a group of 20 undecided superdelegates. How are you
going to make the case to them why you're the better candidate and
more electable in November?
What do you say to them -- minute-and-a-half each. And by a flip
of the coin, Senator Clinton goes first.
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I say to them what I've said to voters
across America -- that we need a fighter back in the White House. We
need someone who's going to take on the special interests.
And I have a plan to take away $55 billion of the giveaways and
the subsidies that the president and Congress have lavished on the
drug companies and the oil companies and the insurance companies and
Wall Street. And I have a plan to give that money back -- give it
back in tax cuts to the middle class -- people who deserve it, who
have been struggling under this president, who feel invisible, who
feel like, you know, they're not even seen anymore.
And we're going to make everybody feel like they're part of the
American family again. And we're going to tackle the problems that
have been waiting for a champion back in the White House.
Now, obviously, I can't do this alone. I can only do it if I get
people who believe in me and support me and who look at my track
record and know that, you know, I've spent a lifetime trying to
empower people, trying to fight for them.
And I think it's going to be challenging, but it is absolutely what we
must do in order to keep faith with our country and to give our
children the future that they deserve.
So I will tell everyone who listens that I'm ready to be the
commander in chief. I've 35 generals and admirals, including two
former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Wesley Clark and
others, who believe that I am the person to lead us out of Iraq, to
take on al Qaeda, to rebuild our military.
And I will turn this economy around. We will get back to shared
prosperity and we will see once again that we can do this the right
way so it's not just a government of the few, by the few and for the
few. And I need your help. I need the help of the voters here in
Pennsylvania, first and foremost, in order to be able to get to those
conversations.
And I hope that I have demonstrated not just over the last weeks
or even over the last hour and half but over a lifetime that you can
count on me. You know where I stand. You know that I will fight for
you and that together we're going to take back our country.
MR. GIBSON: Senator Obama
At 00:00

SEN. OBAMA: Well, when we started this campaign 15 months ago,
it was based on a couple of simple principles: number one, that we
were in a defining moment in our history. Our nation's at war. Our
planet's in peril. Our economy is in a shambles. And most
importantly, the American people have lost trust in their government,
not just Democrats but independents and Republicans who've been
disillusioned about promises that have been made election after
election, decade after decade.
And the bet I was making was a bet on the American people; that
they were tired of a politics that was about tearing about each other
down, but wanted a politics that was about lifting the country up;
that they didn't want spin and PR out of their elected officials, they
wanted an honest conversation.
And most importantly, I believe that change does not happen from
the top down, it happens from the bottom up. And that's why we
decided we weren't going to take PAC money or money from federal
registered lobbyists, that we were not going to be subject to special-
interest influence, but instead were going to enlist the American
people in a project of changing this country.
And during the course of these last 15 months, my bet's paid off
because the American people have responded in record numbers, and not
just people who are accustomed to participating, but people who
haven't participated in years. I talked to a woman here in
Pennsylvania, 70 years old, she whispered to me, "I've never voted
before, but I'm going to vote in this election."
And so my point to the super delegates would be that if we're
going to deliver on health care for every American, improve our
schools, deliver on jobs, then it's going to be absolutely vital we
form a new political coalition in this country. That's what we've
been doing in this campaign, and that's what I'm going to do when I'm
president of the United States of America.
MR. GIBSON: The audience has been very good in restraining
themselves. I think a round of applause for Senators Obama and
Clinton. (Applause.)
And that concludes tonight's Pennsylvania debate.
We appreciate both of you and wish you both the best.
Thank you very much. (Applause continues.)

C-SPAN VIDEO LIBRARY Created by Cable. Offered as a Public Service.

Pennsylvania Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate - Apr 16, 2008

Transcript Text

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

SEN. OBAMA

MR. GIBSON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

SEN. CLINTON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

MR. GIBSON

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MR. GIBSON

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SEN. OBAMA

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