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ELENA KAGAN DISCUSS WOMEN LAWYERS, THE CHALLENGES WOMEN FACE IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION AND THE ROLE WOMEN LAWYERS PLAY IN ORAL ARGUMENTS BEFORE THE SUPREME...
00:00:26
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OF MUSEUM AND THAT'S WHY I HAVE THE MICROPHONE WITH POWER. I SIGN THESE GUYS' CHECKS. OUR FIRST AMENDMENT CENTER IS PLEASED TO JOIN WITH US, SUPREME...
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THE UNITED STATES, GENERAL KAGAN, THE FORMER DEAN OF THE HARVARD LAW SCHOOL AND THE FIRST WOMAN JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES. WHAT A DELIGHT TO HAVE...
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IS THAT CORRECT? >> I WISH. >> WELL, THERE'S BEEN A GOOD NUMBER OF THEM. WELCOME TO THE MUSEUM. >> 21. >>
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21. STILL A LOT
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BY ANY MEASURE. WELCOME TO THE MUSEUM. [
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APPLAUSE ] . >> AND FINALLY
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I'M HAPPY TO INTRODUCE PROFESSOR WENDY WEBSTER WILLIAMS FROM GEORGETOWN LAW SCHOOL, AN AUTHORITY IN THE
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AREA OF GENDER LAW. WELCOME. [ APPLAUSE ] AGAIN >> AGAIN, JUST A FEW ADMINISTRATIVE MATTERS AND WE'LL BEGIN. THE PANEL DISCUSSION WILL END ABOUT 4:00....
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FOR QUESTIONS. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS, COME RIGHT UP HERE AND THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT ARE REQUIRED AS YOU EXERCISE YOUR FREE SPEECH RIGHTS. THE QUESTION...
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I'VE SPENT TIME THINKING ABOUT OVER THE YEARS, NEEDLESS
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TO SAY. MY CHAMBERS WINDOW LOOKS OUT ON THE SEWELL BELMONT HOUSE THAT USED TO BE THE HOME OF ALICE AWL, THE FAMOUS SUFFRAGETTE, SO I'M REMINDED WHEN...
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FIRST WOMAN ADMITTED TO PRACTICE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES. AND TO RECEIVE THAT HONOR, SHE HAD TO TRY THREE TIMES TO GET A SPECIAL...
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YES, I WAS. MAINLY BECAUSE -- >> I WOULD BE,
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TOO. >>
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MAINLY BECAUSE I HAD GOTTEN SO EXCITED ABOUT THE WHOLE PROJECT THAT I BROKE MY LEG AND HAD TO
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APPEAR ON CRUTCHES. IT WAS
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GREAT. AND LOST THE CASE, OF COURSE. >> WHAT CASE WAS IT? >> GIZOLDING VERSUS
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IAELO, THE CONGREGATION PREGNANCY CASE. A CORNERSTONE CASE. >> THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE REMEMBER,
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REALLY. >> RIGHT. ANYWAY, I
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HAVE THE PRIVILEGE AFTER MY ONE TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE AS A SUPREME
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COURT ADVOCATE, OF SETTING THE STAGE FOR ELEANOR -- ELENA KAGAN AND MAUREEN MAHONEY, THE TWO MOST DISTINGUISHED WOMEN, I THINK, IN LAW WHO ARGUED BEFORE...
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ARE THEY STILL GETTING THE OPPORTUNITIES THEY SHOULD? ARE THEY GETTING OPPORTUNITIES AS LAW CLERKS AT THE SUPREME COURT? HAVE YOU COUNTED THAT UP LATELY?...
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WOMAN CLERK WAS JUSTICE SUDWISH'S CLERK IN 1894. >> THE LAW SCHOOL DIDN'T HAVE ANY NAMES TO GIVE HIM AND HE FINALLY WROTE THE LAW SCHOOL UP IN WASHINGTON...
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I KNOW YOU DON'T HAVE ANY MEN. ARN AREN'T THERE ANY WOMEN? AND HE SAID, OH, YEAH, HERE'S SOME NAMES AND HE HIRED ONE. >> 20 YEARS LATER, THE NEXT CLERK...
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OR SOMETHING. >> NO, HE HIRED ANOTHER WOMAN
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IN 1971. BUT IT WAS 20 YEARS BEFORE ANOTHER WOMAN EVER GOT THERE AT ALL. SO WE'RE DOING BETTER, BUT
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IT'S A ROCKY ROAD AS YOUR NUMBERS SUGGEST. >> HOW MANY WOMEN WHEN YOU CLERKED? >> NOT VERY MANY, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THE NUMBER. MAYBE SIX OR SEVEN,...
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BEEN
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1979. >> BUT IT'S SUCH A STEPPING STONE TO LEGAL EMPLOYMENT THAT YOU HOPE THERE ARE MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR GOOD
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LAW CLERK POSITIONS. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE STATISTICS ARE FOR WOMEN LAW CLERKS IN THE LOWER FEDERAL COURTS AT THE COURT OF APPEAL LEVEL OR DISTRICT COURT?...
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JUDGE FOR A CLERKSHIP BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HIRE WOMEN, AND THEN WHEN HIS DAUGHTER LATER WENT TO LAW SCHOOL -- >> DID HE CHANGE HIS MIND? >> -- HE CHANGED...
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GINSBERG'S EXPERIENCE. FIRST OF ALL, WHEN SHE WANTED
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TO GET A FEDERAL COURT CLERKSHIP, SHE COULDN'T GET ONE, AND FINALLY GERALD GUNTHER, WHO WAS A MEMBER IN HER THIRD YEAR, TWISTED THE ARM OF THE JUDGE...
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1979 FOR JUSTICE RENQUIST, WE HAD THE TRADITION OF GOING OUT TO LUNCH WITH
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OTHER JUSTICES. THE OTHER JUSTICES WOULD GRACIOUSLY TAKE THE CLERKS OUT TO LUNCH, AND THERE WAS A JUSTICE THERE WHO SHALL REMAIN NAMELESS WHO WAS...
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THEM WORK FOR PUBLIC EMPLOYERS? THAT WAS MY EXPERIENCE WHEN I CAME TO THE COURTS. YOU MIGHT SEE SOME WOMEN, BUT THEY WERE WORKING FROM DIFFERENT...
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MAUREEN, OBVIOUSLY, ONE OF THEM. I SEE PATTY LETT IN THE OFFICE, BEFORE SHE WENT BACK TO PRIVATE PRACTICE. >> SOMEWHAT BETTER, BUT STILL IN TERMS OF NUMBERS,...
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PUBLIC SECTOR? >> PROBABLY. I HAVEN'T SEEN THE NUMBERS, BUT I CAN SPEAK TO IN PRIVATE PRACTICE,
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THE SUPREME COURT BAR IS STILL MORE DOMINATED BY MEN, AND IN LARGE PART, THOUGH, I THINK IT'S A FACTOR ASSOCIATED WITH THE ASSOCIATE GENERAL'S OFFICE...
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GET
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THEM
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OUT. [ LAUGHTER ] >> I KNOW YOU'RE GOING TO HOLD ME TO A COUNT
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NOW. >> ONE OBSERVATION I HAVE ON THIS BUSINESS OF COMING IN THROUGH GOVERNMENT IS THAT THE FIRST GREAT LAWYER
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IS SORT OF OF THE MIDDLE 20th CENTURY WHERE I THINK ALMOST ALL GOVERNMENT LAWYERS, AND THEY WERE VERY RARE EVEN THEN, I WOULD SAY. BUT TODAY WOMEN'S...
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THEIR EFFORTS TODAY IN TERMS OF WOMEN? WHAT'S NEEDED? >> UNLIKE CLARA, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO SUE TO GO TO LAW SCHOOL. THAT'S STEP ONE. AND UNLIKE
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CLARA, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO GO TO THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE AND PERSUADE IT TO ALLOW WOMEN IN THE BAR. THAT'S TAKEN CARE OF. REALLY NOW THE PROJECT...
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IN LAW SCHOOL. SO WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S TRUE? >> THAT'S THE GREAT QUESTION. >> I'M GOING TO ASK ALL THREE OF YOU THAT. >> ALL RIGHT. >>
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YOU CAN GO FIRST,
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BUT THEN I WANT ANSWERS FROM THE OTHER TWO. >> I'LL TAKE A
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SWING AT IT. IT'S VERY HARD TO KNOW, AND
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I PRACTICED IN THE CORPORATE SEGMENT OF THE PRACTICE,
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SO MY VIEW IS SOMEWHAT SKEWED, AND THAT'S PROBABLY WHERE WOMEN ARE UNDERREPRESENTED THE MOST. BUT I HONESTLY THINK THAT ONE OF THE BIG REASONS IS SOMETHING...
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THAN YOU USED TO BE ABLE TO. >> THAT HELPS, THAT DEFINITELY HELPS. BUT AT THE MOST COMPETITIVE LEVELS OF THE PROFESSION, THERE IS
00:25:44
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A DRIVE THAT IS REQUIRED, AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TIME AND BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT TIME AND JUST A LOT OF SACRIFICE. IT DOESN'T MEAN WOMEN CAN'T DO IT,...
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STILL HAVE SOME WORK TO DO ON STRUCTURING WORKPLACE FEATURES SO THAT THERE ISN'T A PENALTY FOR HAVING A FAMILY LIFE. AND WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THAT...
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THAT YOU ELIMINATE THE GAP THAT EXISTS, AND ACTUALLY, IT'S HAPPENING. I HAVE TO SAY, PATERNITY LEAVE TEN YEARS AGO WAS VIRTUALLY UNHEARD OF BECAUSE...
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INCLUDING MINE. MEN ARE SFARTTARTING
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TO FEEL IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT AND IT'S SOMETHING I HAVE TO GIVE GREATER PRIORITY. WHEN THAT STARTS TO HAPPEN, WOMEN WON'T BE AT AS BIG A COMPETITIVE...
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WOMEN HAVE MORE NEED TO BALANCE WORK AND FAMILY LIFE, AND IT COULD START WITH
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FAMILY ISSUES WHEN YOU SAY THE BREAD WINNER MENTALITY. WOMEN HAVE MORE PERSONAL INTERESTS, MORE PROFESSIONAL INTERESTS, SO THEY'LL MOVE AROUND TO...
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IS BECAUSE OF THE CHOICES WOMEN MAKE AS THEY GO ALONG AND WHAT THEY WANT TO DO? >> IT'S AT LEAST A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR. I'M SURE THERE ARE MANY, BUT...
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ON THAT, WOULD YOU SAY? >> AT LEAST IN PART. NOT TO SAY LAW FIRMS COULDN'T
00:28:32
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BE DOING A BETTER JOB IN ORDER TO ACCOMMODATE WOMEN'S MANY NEEDS,
00:28:36
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AND ESPECIALLY THE WORK LIFE ISSUES. I THINK LAW FIRMS, FOR THE MOST PART, COULD BE DOING A BETTER JOB WITH THAT. >> COULD THEY DO BETTER, COULD THEY...
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LAW FIRM PERSON, MAUREEN. >> THERE IS NOTHING THAT I THINK MY LAW FIRM SHOULD DO THAT IT'S NOT
00:28:56
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DOING. I'VE FOUND MY FIRM,
00:28:58
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ANYWAY, TO BE VERY ACCOMMODATING. THEY OFFER A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS THAT YOU CAN PRACTICE LAW. AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF YOU WANT TO BE A SUPREME...
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PRACTICE. SOMEHOW YOU'VE MANAGED. HOW HAVE YOU
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DONE THAT? >> I THINK BY
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LIMITING MY LIFE TO MY FAMILY AND MY PROFESSION, PERIOD. >> NO TIME FOR FRIENDS. >> VERY
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LITTLE. >> THAT'S TRUE FOR ME. >> THAT WAS TRUE FOR ME. I HAD TIME TO
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DO MY
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WORK
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AND TRY TO ADVANCE IN THE PROFESSION,
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BUT I DENY HAVE ANY SPARE TIME. >> THAT'S IT. THE TWO THINGS YOU CAN DO. >> COULDN'T PLAY BRIDGE, CAN'T GET A
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MANICURE. >> I LIKE EBAY. OCCASIONALLY I DO THAT. >> WE'RE SUPPOSED TO ALLOW A LITTLE TIME FOR QUESTIONS FROM THE
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AUDIENCE, AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO DO THAT FOR A WHILE. BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY
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GOOD QUESTIONS, I'M GOING TO START ASKING SOME QUESTIONS. SO ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO ASK BETTER GET UP. >> IF WE MAY, WITH YOUR APPROVAL, JUSTICE O'CONNOR,...
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OUR AUDIENCE WHAT WAS ALREADY MENTIONED A NOTED SUPREME COURT ADVOCATE, AND IF WE COULD HAVE HER, PERHAPS, IF SHE WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A COMMENT OR...
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PLANTED. >> TURN AROUND SO THEY CAN SEE YOU. >> IF YOU WOULD LIKE, SINCE
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SHE'S INVITED YOU, YOU'RE WELCOME TO COME UP
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HERE. WHATEVER YOU'RE MOST
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COMFORTABLE WITH. >> THIS PANEL IS STELLAR AND SDEN NEED ANY ADDITIONS TO IT. BUT THANK YOU FOR
00:31:03
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THE INVITATION. A COMMENT AND QUESTION. IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT HOW HARD IT'S BEEN FOR WOMEN TO GET WHERE THEY'VE...
00:32:37
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WELL, SURE. >> WHAT SHOULD WE DO? >> I THINK
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WOMEN ALWAYS HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THESE THINGS
00:32:44
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IN A
00:32:46
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WAY THAT MEN
00:32:48
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DON'T SKPCHLT. AND I WISH IT WERE DIFFERENT, BUT TO BE AWARE OF THE WAY PEOPLE ARE PERCEIVING YOU IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK WOMEN IN PUBLIC LIFE, WHETHER...
00:33:18
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HARD. I DON'T KNOW. IN THE END YOU HAVE TO BE YOURSELF. AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE
00:33:24
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PEOPLE ACCEPT YOU ON YOUR OWN TERMS. BUT I DO THINK THERE IS -- THERE ARE THOSE ISSUES OF THE KIND THAT PATTY ARE TALKING ABOUT OUT THERE. >> MAUREEN?...
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YOUR
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TALENT. >> I THINK THAT'S WHAT WOMEN JUST HAVE TO KEEP ON DOING UNTIL IT'S DONE. IT MAY TAKE A WHILE. >> IF I
00:33:51
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MAY SAY SO, MAUREEN MAHONEY HAS DONE A GOOD JOB OF JUST THAT. SHE GETS UP THERE AND WOWS THEM. YOU WON MOST
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OF THOSE CASES. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. NOT THAT I'M COUNTING. >> WENDY, WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER? >> MY ANSWER IS
00:34:10
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THAT, LISTENING TO THIS, I'M
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IMPRESSED WITH HOW
00:34:16
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MUCH HAS CHANGED, FROM THE DISCUSSION EARLIER ON WHETHER WOMEN SHOULD WEAR THEIR HATS TO ORAL ARGUMENTS TO THE EARLY '70s WHERE THE DISCUSSION WAS,...
00:35:19
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ASK YOU A QUESTION, JUSTICE O'CONNOR? >> WELL, ALL RIGHT. >> DO YOU THINK WOMEN ARE
00:35:25
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TREATED IN DISTRICT COURT DIFFERENT IN ANY
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WAY? >> I THINK SOME
00:35:30
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MEMBERS OF THE COURT PROBABLY HAVE NOT ASKED AS MANY QUESTIONS OF WOMEN OR HANDLED THEM QUITE THE SAME
00:35:37
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WAY, WOULDN'T BE QUITE AS INCLINED TO BE OUT AND OUT MEAN AS THEY MIGHT WITH SOME MALE ADVOCATE. I THINK SOME DIFFERENCES YOU WOULD KNOW BETTER THAN...
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OFFICE COMING TO THE COURT TO ARGUE ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT IS TO PUT
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A MORNING COAT ON. THAT'S PRETTY FORMAL. MOST OF US HAVE NEVER EVEN SEEN ONE UNTIL WE GET TO THE COURT. SO WHAT DO THE WOMEN ADVOCATES DO? >> MOST...
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THEY PROBABLY WEAR BLACK JACKETS. >> I JUST WEAR A BLACK SUIT. THAT'S WHAT I DO. >> I HAD A CONVERSATION
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WITH JUSTICE RENQUIST
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WHEN I WAS IN THE SOLICITOR GENERAL'S OFFICE FOR TWO YEARS, AND I HAD
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CLERKED FOR HIM, SO WE WERE HAVING LUNCH, AND HE ASKED ME WHY I WASN'T WEARING A MORNING COAT FOR ARGUMENTS BECAUSE I DID NOT -- I WAS ONE WHO ELECTED...
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OFFICE, I CALLED JEFF
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MENE,E, R, AND I ASKED HIM, DOES IT MATTER, WILL ANYBODY CARE WHAT I WEAR? AND HE SAID, ABSOLUTELY NOT. WEAR WHAT YOU'RE COMFORTABLE WITH. >> NOW,...
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KATHY McCLURE. I'M A TRIAL LAWYER FROM ATLANTA. FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS I'VE BEEN PRACTICING BEFORE THE BAR IN GEORGIA. WHAT I FOUND IS THAT WE HAVE,...
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MADE YOUR LIFE PARTNER IN THESE MATTERS. BECAUSE LOOKING BACK,
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THE WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN REALLY SUCCESSFUL HAD GUYS THAT AT LEAST DIDN'T STAND IN THEIR WAY, AND SOME OF THEM HAD PARTNERS WHO WERE EXTRAORDINARILY...
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WANTED SOME GOOD JOB AND GOT THEM. THEY THOUGHT IT WAS WONDERFUL. BUT MY HUSBAND KNEW BEFORE WE MARRIED THAT I PLANNED TO WORK. THAT WAS UNDERSTOOD....
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BARBARA PERRY, A PROFESSOR
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OF GOVERNMENT AT SWEET BRIER COLLEGE
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IN VIRGINIA AND I WAS
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A FELLOW OF THE COURT IN 1994 AND '95. I HAD THE PRIVILEGE LAST YEAR OF ATTENDING THE ARIZONA STRIP SEARCH CASE INVOLVING THE 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL. IT...
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INFLUENCE ON THE OTHERS BY MAKING GOOD ARGUMENTS TO THEM AND WRITING OPINION DRAFTS THAT PERSUADE, AND THAT'S WHAT WE ALL TRY TO DO IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES,...
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JUDGE. >> HI. I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO THE QUESTION THAT WAS ASKED THAT
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RAISED THE
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ISSUE OF THE WISE LATINA COMMENT. BECAUSE I GUESS I WAS A LITTLE BIT SURPRISED THAT NOBODY MENTIONED THE IMPORTANCE OF PUBLIC EDUCATION IN ADDRESSING...
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THAT. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? >> THAT SOUNDS RIGHT TO ME. JUSTICE O'CONNOR GETS THE LAST WORD. >> OH, NO, I DON'T. >>
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ARE THERE ANY OTHER READY QUESTIONS? WE HAVE TIME FOR ONE MORE UP
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THERE. >> WE HAVE TWO HANDS UP. SHOULD
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WE TAKE ONE QUESTION OR TWO, JUSTICE? >> I DON'T KNOW. IF THEY'LL BE BRIEF, WE'LL
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TAKE THEM BOTH. >> IF YOU'RE BRIEF, MA'AM, WE'LL TAKE YOUR
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QUESTION AND THE GENTLEMAN IN FRONT, PLEASE BE PROMPT. WE HAVE A MICROPHONE FOR YOU. >>
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MY QUESTION IS SIMPLE. HOW HAVE YOU DEALT AND HOW WOULD YOU RECOMMEND THAT
01:13:17
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WOMEN DEAL WITH THE OLD BOYS' CLUB? IT WAS MENTIONED A LITTLE IN THE SOCIALIZATION. I THINK YOUNG WOMEN KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. HOW DO YOU DEAL...
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IT WILL HELP. I THINK EVERYBODY CAN RECOGNIZE GOOD WORK WHEN THEY SEE IT, AND SO THERE MAY BE SOME INITIAL BELIEF THAT, OH, SHE'S A WOMAN, SHE WON'T...
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WHEN MAUREEN SAID, AS MORE AND MORE GENERAL COUNSELS BECOME WOMEN, IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE
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FOR WOMEN LAWYERS. THAT'S RIGHT. >> THIS GENTLEMAN WILL GET THE LAST QUESTION, SIR? >> THANK YOU. JUSTICE O'CONNOR AND OTHERS TALKED ABOUT THE
01:14:24
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GREAT STRIDES THE WOMEN HAVE MADE OVER
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THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS. DO YOU SEE SOMETIME IN OUR HISTORY -- WHAT SCARES ME ABOUT THIS IS THE STRIDES THE AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE MADE AND SO FORTH,...
01:14:47
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TERRIFIC. >> OVER HALF THE PEOPLE ARE WOMEN. YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO LET IT SLIDE
01:14:53
Unidentified Speaker, -
01:14:54
Unidentified Speaker, -
BACK? NO WAY! [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] >> JUSTICE O'CONNOR, WHENEVER YOU WANT TO EXERCISE YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, THE
01:15:10
Unidentified Speaker, -
NEW SEAM'S DOORS ARE ALWAYS OPEN TO YOU. [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] >> WENDY WEBSTER WILLIAMS, MARINE MAHONEY, ELANA KAGAN AND JUSTICE SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR,...
01:15:28
Unidentified Speaker, -
MUCH. AND THANK YOU. [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] . >>> YOU'RE

NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.

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