| 00:01:13 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ANAFELINI? >> GOOD MORNING, AND MAY IS PLEASE THE COURT. I AM HERE OF ARNOLD AND PORTER ON BEHALF OF ZACH RISS MOUSSAOUI. HIS PLEA, WANT UNCOUNSELED,...
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| 00:01:38 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PORTS WITH THE FIFTH AND SIXTH AMENDMENT. >> YOU HAVE FILED A MOUNTAIN OF PAPER IN THIS CASE, AND YET I DON'T BELIEVE WE RECEIVED A 28-J LETTER FROM...
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| 00:02:03 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CASE, "MISAPPLIED WHAT HAPPENED IN THE COURT BEFORE AND TOOK ACCEPTABLE PROHIBITIONS ON ATTORNEY-CLIENT COMMUNICATIONS AND SCOMMANDED THEM BEYOND ...
|
| 00:03:01 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SMITH, IN OTHER WORDS, THE DISCOVERY IS IN FACT MATERIAL TO THE CASE OR TO AN ISSUE IN THE CASE, THAT INFORMATION MUST EITHER BE PRODUCED TO THE DEFENDANT,...
|
| 00:03:59 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
RESTRICT THE LAWYER AND THE CLIENT TO TALK ABOUT THAT INFORMATION BECAUSE IT IMPAIRS THE
|
| 00:04:04 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ATTORNEY-CLIENT RELATIONSHIP. IT PUTS THE ATTORNEY IN THE POSITION OF HAVING TO TELL THE CLIENT, MAKE RECOMMENDATION BUSS WHAT TO DO IN THE CASE...
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| 00:05:12 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
YOU MEAN BY ZUMBLE. DO YOU MEN SCUB TORE? >> NO. IT IS IMPORTANT TO AN ISSUE IN THE
|
| 00:05:19 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CASE. I AM PARAPHRASING. THIS REPORT IN ABU-ALI DETERMINED SOME CLASSIFIED INFORMATION WAS IN FACT MATERIAL TO THE CASE OR IMPORTANT TO AN ISSUE...
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| 00:05:32 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IT REQUIRED THAT THE GOVERNMENT PRODUCE THAT INFORMATION IN A FASHION THAT COULD BE SHARED WITH THE DEFENDANT HIMSELF.
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| 00:05:37 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT IS ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE ARE SAYING. THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT I JUST SAID >> I GATHERED FROM YOUR ARGUMENT THAT ANYTHING...
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| 00:06:08 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT IS, THE DETERMINATION
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| 00:06:13 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AS
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| 00:06:14 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO WHAT THE DEFENDANT WAS GOING TO SEE. AND THAT HE IN EFFECT SHORT CIRCUITED THAT PROCESS BY ENTERING HIS GUILTY
|
| 00:06:23 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PLEA. >> THAT IS CORRECT IN PART. SOME OF THE EVIDENCE IN THAT CASE AND SOME OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE FOCUSED ON THE SCOURT HAD FOUND TO NOT ONLY...
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| 00:06:45 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WE CITED THAT IN WHICH THE COURT SPECIFICALLY HELD THAT. AND THIS COURT VALIDATED THAT. IT, TOO, FOUND THE INFORMATION TO BE MATERIAL AND EXCULPATORY....
|
| 00:07:33 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PART. IT IS BECAUSE THE DISTRICT COURT TOOK THE POSITION THAT DISCOVERY PRODUCTIONS WERE COMPLETE AMONG PRODUCTIONS TO THE LAWYER. THERE WERE...
|
| 00:07:54 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WAS REPRESENTING HIMSELF PRO SE. THE COURT SAID NO, YOU DON'T GET ACCESS TO THAT. WE ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS, AND AT SOME POINT AT TRIAL YOU...
|
| 00:09:13 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
LEAST SIX CIRCUITS HAVE EXAMINED THE QUESTION ABOUT IF YOU HAVE A BRADY VIOLATION, IS THAT A BASIS FOR DECLARING THE PLEA. THIS IS SEPARATE. ...
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| 00:09:24 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
BUT WASN'T THE DISCOVERY PHASE STILL GOING ON WHEN MOUSSAOUI CHANGED THE PLEA TO GUILTY? >> IT WAS. BUT AS TO CERTAIN DOCUMENTS, JUDGE WILLIAMS, AND...
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| 00:09:45 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
INVOLUNTARY. >> JUDGE, WE ARE SAYING IT IS INVOLUNTARY -- >>
|
| 00:09:50 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IT WASN'T EVEN FINALIZED. >> OUR POINT IS IT WAS UNCOUNSELED. OUR POINT IS WHEN A DISTRICT JUDGE ENTERS AN ORDER
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| 00:10:00 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT RESTRICTS A LAWYER AND CLIENT FROM TALKING, THE COURT HAS TO BE SURE BEFORE A PLEA IS TAKEN THAT THAT ORDER HAS NOT IMPEDED
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| 00:10:09 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE COUNSELING OF A PLEA. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE SAYING
|
| 00:10:12 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TOOK PLACE HERE. I WANT TO NOTE THIS. THIS WAS
|
| 00:10:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AN EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT CASE. AMONG OTHER THINGS, YOU HAVE A DEFENDANT CHARGED IN ONE OF THE MOST HEINOUS CRIMINAL ACTS IN OUR COUNTRY'S HISTORY,...
|
| 00:11:20 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT YOU THINK THAT HE DIDN'T GET. >> FOUR DAYS AFTER
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| 00:11:25 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE PLEA, THE DISTRICT
|
| 00:11:31 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COURT NOTED ON THE RECORD -- AND I AM TALKING ABOUT
|
| 00:11:34 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IT MORE SPECIFICALLY. BUT MOUSSAOUI WAS CHARGED WITH PARTICIPATE NEGLIGENCE A CONSPIRACY THAT INCLUDED THE
|
| 00:11:40 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
9/11 ATTACKS. AT TILE, --
|
| 00:11:45 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TRYING, AMONG THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS ADMITTED WAS TESTIMONY FROM THE MASTERMIND, WHO TESTIFIED THAT MOUSSAOUI HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT. HE WAS RECRUITED...
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| 00:12:45 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
YOUR ARREST, WERE YOU SCHEDULED TO BE A PILOT IN THE OPERATION THAT WAS ULTIMATELY RUN ON SEPTEMBER 11"? AND MR. MOUSSAOUI SAID YES. >> THAT WAS FROM...
|
| 00:13:22 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PREJUDICE. THE PROBLEM WAS TWO-FOLD. ONE, MOUSSAOUI COULDN'T KNOW WHETHER HIS COUNSEL'S ADVICE WAS LEGITIMATE. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU GO TO YOUR CLIENT,...
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| 00:14:05 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
YOU MAY HAVE A QUESTION. >> THIS IS UNCOUNSELED PLEA. YOUR ARGUMENT IS IT IS
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| 00:14:12 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IMPAIRED COUNSELING? >> IT IS CONSTRUCTIVE DEPRIVATION. IT SAYS IF YOU HAVE INTERFERENCE WITH DEFENSE , THAT IS A CONSTRUCTIVE ONE. THIS WAS A CASE...
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| 00:14:29 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
A 15-MINUTE -- >> A
|
| 00:14:36 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
RESTRICTION FROM COUNSEL TALKING TO THE CLIENT ON A 15-MINUTE BREAK. NOTHING COULD BE DISCUSSED DURING THAT 15 MINUTES THAT THEY WERE PERMANENTED TO...
|
| 00:14:56 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
EVIDENCE. IT WOULD BE DEAF TATING TO THE SIXTH AMENDMENT TO SAY THAT THE COURTS CAN KEEP ATTORNEYS AND CLIENTS FROM DISCUSSING EXCULPATORY INFORMATION....
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| 00:15:32 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WHAT THEY ARE SAYING. >> THE COURT HAS DETERMINED HOW IMPORTANT IT IS. THE FOURTH CIRCUIT
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| 00:15:41 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
APPROVED THOSE FINDINGS UNDER EITHER ABUSE OF DISCRETION OR A DENOVO FINDING. THE MAN WAS FACING CHARGES THAT HE WAS INVOLVED IN 9/11, AND YOU...
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| 00:15:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DETAIL THAT HE WAS NOT INVOLVED. OF COURSE SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO TAKE A PLEA WILL WANT TO KNOW THAT INFORMATION. ONE OF THE CRITICAL SUPREME COURT...
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| 00:17:01 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
NO CIRCUMSTANCES. THE POINT IS IN NONE OF THOSE CASES DID THE COURT APPROVE A RESTRICTION THAT PREVENTED THE
|
| 00:17:08 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ATTORNEY AND CLIENT FROM TALKING ABOUT INFORMATION TO WHICH THE DEFENDANT WAS
|
| 00:17:12 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ENTITLED. THAT SECOND CIRCUIT CASE WAS A CASE IN WHICH THE DAYS THE DISTRICT
|
| 00:17:18 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COURT RESTRICTED THE DEFENDANT FROM HAVING ACCESS TO INFORMATION TO WHICH HE WASN'T ENTITLED. >> THERE WAS AN INFIERY AND THE COURT DETERMINED THAT...
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| 00:17:47 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE GOVERNMENT, MR. PERRY, GETTERS, THE CASE INVOLVING JENKS, ALL OF THOSE WERE NARROWLY TAYLORED RESTRICTIONS ON -- TAYLORED RESTRICTIONS. THE...
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| 00:18:44 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT ISSUE. BUT THE POINT IS THAT A GUILTY PLEA THAT IS INVALID IS INVALID. >> I UNDER THAT. I WAS WONDERING IF THERE WAS SOMETHING OVER YOUR HEAD....
|
| 00:19:00 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SHOULD THE TRIAL JUDGE HAVE REFUSED TO TAKE THE PLEA? IS THAT YOUR POSITION? >> THE TRIAL JUDGE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THE STEP TO INSURE THAT THE ORDERED...
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| 00:19:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DIDN'T PREVENT THE COUNSELED PLEA. >> BUT YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT HE
|
| 00:19:19 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COULD
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| 00:19:21 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
NOT VOLUNTARILY PLEAD GUILTY AT THAT STAGE WHERE HE HAD
|
| 00:19:26 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
NOT BEEN PROVIDED EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE. IF THAT IS SO, THEN SHE SHOULD NOT THAT HAVE TAKEN THIS PLEA. >> THE JUDGE WAS DOING THE BEST SHE COULD UNDER
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| 00:19:38 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE CIRCUMSTANCES. BUT HE WAS REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL, AND I THINK YOU CAN WAIVE THE RIGHT TO COUNSEL IN CONNECTION WITH ANYTHING. IF YOU HAD A KNOWING...
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| 00:19:56 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WORDS, SHE SHOULD HAVE ASKED HIM ARE YOU AWARE THAT BY PLEADING GUILTY, YOU ARE FORFEITING ANY FURTHER CLAIM TO EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE? >> I THINK THE...
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| 00:20:16 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
YOU? FUNDAMENTALLY YOU WANT A WAIVER THAT IS INFORMED THAT THE DEFENDANT IS WAIVING. HE IS WAIVING THE RIGHT TO
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| 00:20:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
FREE COMMUNICATION ON EXCULPATORY INFORMATION. >> AND SHE SHOULD HAVE SUPPLIES ITALY ASKED THEM THAT. >> THE DEFENSE COUNSEL FLAGGED THAT PARTICULAR...
|
| 00:20:52 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
11 COLLOQUY. >> WELL, RULE 11 DOESN'T HAVE THAT OBVIOUSLY.
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| 00:20:56 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SO YOU WOULD HAVE US IMPOSE IN THOUGH TYPE OF SITUATION A NEW REQUIREMENT ON TRIAL OR DISTRICT JUDGES TAKING PLEASE? >> JUDGE, I AM SENSITIVE TO NOT ...
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| 00:21:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
OF RULE 11 COLORADO QUESTIONS. >> MY PARENT IS THAT IT SHOULD BE VERY RARE THAT AN ATTORNEY AND CLIENT CAN'T TALK ABOUT SOMETHING.
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| 00:21:28 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IF THAT HAPPENS, IT HAS TO EFFECT SOMETHING ABOUT THE ABILITY OF A COUNSELED PLEA. BY THE TIME OF THE PLEA, THAT HAD NOT BEEN CURED. WE ARE NOT SAYING,
|
| 00:21:40 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AND HAVE NEVER SAID, THAT MOUSSAOUI WAS ENTITLED TO CLASSIFIED INFORMATION. IF CEFA HAD JUST BEEN FOLLOWING, THE INFORMATION SHOULD GO TO THE DEFENDANT...
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| 00:22:33 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE TRIAL? >> YOU CANNOT CALL A PLEA COUNSELED IF AT THE TIME OF THE COUNSEL A DEFENSE LAWYER HAS MATERIAL EXCULPATORY INFORMATION AND HAS BEEN BARRED...
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| 00:22:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID IN SEVERAL CASES. >> SO YOU ARE CAGE THAT MOUSSAOUI DID NOT KNOW THAT THERE WAS ANY MATERIAL THAT WAS EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE...
|
| 00:23:21 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
GETTING A RECOMMENDATION. IT MEANS ABLE -- BEING ABLE TO EXPLAIN TO YOUR CLIENT. THIS DISTRICT COURT NOTED ON THE ROSHED
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| 00:23:31 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT COUNSEL VERY STRONGLY BELIEVED THAT MOUSSAOUI SHOULD NOT PLEAD GUILTY AT THAT POINT, AND THEY HAVE SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT ULTIMATELY CAME...
|
| 00:24:33 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COURT APPOINTED COULD NOT TALK ABOUT MATERIAL EXCULPATORY INFORMATION. MY TIME IS UP. I HAD OTHER
|
| 00:24:42 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
POINTS. I AM HAPPY TO GO THROUGH THEM. I WAS GOING TO ADDRESS THE BRADY ARGUMENT AND THEN THE SENTENCING ARGUMENT IF THE COURT PERMITS. BUT OTHERWISE,...
|
| 00:25:14 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PROTECTIONS YOU WOULD HAVE AT TRITE THAT YOU ARE GIVING UP. FIRST YOU
|
| 00:25:17 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COULD SEE THE GOVERNMENT'S
|
| 00:25:19 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
EVIDENCE, AND YOU COULD TEST IT THROUGH
|
| 00:25:22 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY YOUR ATTORNEYS, AND HE INDICATED HE UNDERSTOOD THAT. MY QUESTION IS WHY DOESN'T THAT REFLECT A WARNING FROM HER THAT IF YOU PLEAD...
|
| 00:25:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COLLOQUY. THREE CIRCUITS HAVE HELD THIS, TWO CIRCUITS HAVE SUGGESTED IT WAS PART OF THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES. NOTWITHSTANDING THAT, IF THERE ...
|
| 00:26:58 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
POINT IS
|
| 00:27:00 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TWO-FOLD. ONE, EVERY COURT OF APPEAL THAT HAS ANALYZED THIS ISSUE SAYS THAT A BRADY VIOLATION IS A BASIS TO SAY THE PLEA WAS UNKNOWING OR INVOLUNTARY....
|
| 00:28:31 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ANY ATTORNEY HAVE MET? >> SHE HAD TO BE NATIONAL SECURITY CLEARED? >> DOES THAT MEAN THEY HAD TO BE CEPA CLEARED? >> THAT IS MY UNDERSTANDING. >> WHAT...
|
| 00:28:56 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WEREN'T THERE SOME EFFORTS MADE BY THE APPOINTED COUNSEL TO SECURE THE
|
| 00:29:00 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COUNSEL WITH THE REQUIREMENTS HE WAS WANTING TO
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| 00:29:03 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IMPOSE. >> I DON'T KNOW IN THE RECORD WHETHER THAT OCCURRED.
|
| 00:29:06 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THERE ARE SOME LAWYERS THAT DID IN FACT COME IN AND OFFER
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| 00:29:10 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO ENTER AN APPEARANCE FOR MOUSSAOUI AT VARIOUS PICTURES. HE REJECTED
|
| 00:29:16 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ONE, AND ANOTHER ONE, BROTHER FREEMAN DID IN FACT COME IN. HE DIDN'T ENTER A PRO
|
| 00:29:25 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
HOCK APPEARANCE, AND THE ZROCKET SAID IF YOU DON'T DO THAT, YOU COULD REPRESENT MOUSSAOUI. >> WHAT DO YOU CONTEND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IN ORDER TO...
|
| 00:29:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ACCESS TO CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, YOU HAVE TO GET CLEARANCE. BUT THE COURT DIDN'T SAY EVERY LAWYER HAD TO BE
|
| 00:30:05 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CLEARED. BY IMPOSING THAT REQUIREMENT, YOU GIVE THE GOVERNMENT AN IMPLIED VETO THAT COMES IN YOUR CASE. THERE ARE SOME LAWYERS THAT JUST DO NOT...
|
| 00:31:26 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SAID I WAS NEVER GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE THE LAWYER I WANTED TO REPRESENT ME. >> I AM FAMILIAR WITH THOSE. I HATE TO CUT YOU OFF, BUT YOU HAVE...
|
| 00:31:53 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
A I BELIEVE A CONDITIONAL PLEA IS NOT EASY TO
|
| 00:31:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ENTER. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
|
| 00:31:59 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CASES IN WHICH THIS COURT HAS SAID THAT IS NOT A CONDITIONAL PLEA. THE CLEAREST ONE TO ME IS THE NOTION OF HAVING THE GOVERNMENT AGREE. >> DO YOU KNOW...
|
| 00:32:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY EFFORT ON THAT. HE WAS PRO S EMP SOMETIMES, AND SOMETIMES NOT PRO SE. HE REALLY DID WANT TO TRY AND RAISE THE ISSUE OF THE SUBSTITUTION...
|
| 00:32:30 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
NO SPECIFIC EFFORT. >> LET ME GET YOU TO SWITCH
|
| 00:32:36 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
OVER TO THE DEATH ELIGIBILITY RULES. HOW DOES THAT PREJUDICE THE DEFENDANT? >> MOUSSAOUI WAS TREATED AS THOUGH HE PLED GUILTY TO INVOLVEMENT IN THE...
|
| 00:32:55 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
FACT. DIDN'T ADMIT TO THE SPIRITS TO WHICH HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY WAS THE SAME AS THE 9/11 ATTACK. >> I MISLED YOU. LET
|
| 00:33:06 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ME REFINE. IN THE PENALTY PHASE THEY MADE A DEATH ELIGIBILITY DECISION, AND THAT REFLECTED THE SENTENCE HE GO. HE GOT LIFE SENTENCES ALSO
|
| 00:33:25 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ON NON-DEATH ELIGIBLE COUNSEL. YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT HE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO MAKE A -- THE JURY SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO MAKE THAT...
|
| 00:34:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DECIDE TO ENTER LIFE IN PRISON. THE DISTRICT COURT WAS BOUND BY THAT JUDGMENT. IT HAD NO DISCRETION. WITHOUT THE FINDING OF DEATH ELIGIBILITY, WHAT...
|
| 00:35:30 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SAY WHAT THE COURT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE IF IT WAS PRESENTED WITH THE
|
| 00:35:35 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DECISION WHEN THE DECISION WAS
|
| 00:35:37 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IN ITS OWN DISCRETION. ALL WE
|
| 00:35:39 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ARE ASKING FOR ON THE SENTENCE, AND IT IS LIMITED, AND IT MAY BE VERY LIMITED. BUT THE DISTRICT COURT OUGHT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXERCISE THE...
|
| 00:36:22 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
LINES. IS THERE ACTUALLY A SENTENCE OTHER THAN LIFE THAT HE COULD GET? >> JUDGE WILLIAMS, THE PRESENTENCE REPORT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PREPARED. UNDER...
|
| 00:36:48 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THERE IS NO PRESENTENCE REPORT. IF MOUSSAOUI HAD BEEN FOUND NOT TO BE DEATH ELIGIBILITY AND THERE FOUR NOT SPOBSIBLE FOR ALL OF THE DEATHS ON 9/11,...
|
| 00:37:36 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
A LITTLE DISINGENUOUS FOR YOU TO CLAIM THERE IS NO FACTUAL BASE? >> I CERTAINLY DON'T MEAN TO BE DISINGENUOUS. IT IS DRAFTED TO SAY THAT MOUSSAOUI...
|
| 00:38:05 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IS WHAT IS INCLUDED WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE CONSPIRACY IS A JURY QUESTION. THERE HAS TO BE A SPECIFIC ADMISSION OF FACT THAT THE TWO CONSPIRACIES...
|
| 00:39:21 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
I WOULD ANSWER THE QUESTION THIS WAY. IF YOU WERE PART OF THE MOB, YOU MIGHT KNOW ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR CONSPIRACY. I MIGHT BE IN THE MOB AND I STEAL...
|
| 00:39:41 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
BECAUSE I WANT THIS OTHER OPERATION TO GO FORWARD, THE ONE IN WHICH SOMEBODY IS GOING TO GET KILLED -- >> BUT THEY AGREED THAT THERE WERE DIFFERENT...
|
| 00:40:12 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
I AM SAYING WHAT HIS TESTIMONY UNDER OATH SAID. >>
|
| 00:40:17 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
YES. IN HIS TESTIMONY IN PHASE ONE AND TWO, HE CLEARLY ADMITS IN THE PARTICIPATION IN THE 9/11 CONSPIRACY. MY ONLY POINT ON THE SENTENCING IS...
|
| 00:40:34 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AM REPEATING MYSELF. >> I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK TO JUDGE TRAXLER'S
|
| 00:40:39 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
QUESTION. OBVIOUSLY THE RECORD IS CLEAR THAT MR. MOUSSAOUI WAS SENTENCED ON THE NON-CAPITAL COUNT FOR LIFE, AND YOUR ARGUMENT IS IT SHOWS PREJUDICE....
|
| 00:40:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE RECORD THAT THE DISTRICT COURT WAS NOT AWARE THAT SHE SHOULD HAVE GIVEN LESS THAN LIFE? WHERE IS IT IN AN ANALYSIS THAT IT IS PLAINLY ON THE RECORD...
|
| 00:41:33 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PEOPLE, I THINK THE LOWEST YOU ARE EVER GOING TO GET IS LIFE IMPRISONMENT WITHOUT PAYROLL. THAT IS GOING TO INFLUENCE THE OTHER COUNTS. SHE THOUGHT...
|
| 00:43:00 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
HEINOUS -- THE 9/11 ATTACKS WERE HEINOUS CRIMINAL ACTS. THIS IS WOVEN THE FIRST CASES THAT ANYBODY HAD BEEN CHARGED FOR PARTICIPATING IN THAT THEORY....
|
| 00:43:18 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THERE WERE TERRIBLE THINGS SAID ABOUT THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES, AND THEY ARE INDEFENSIBLE. I CAN UNDER WHY SHE WOULD HAVE LET PEOPLE COME IN...
|
| 00:45:33 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE VIGOROUS
|
| 00:45:34 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ADVICE OF HIS COUNSEL. HE MADE IT
|
| 00:45:37 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CLEAR HE WAS FOREVER WAVERING HIS RIGHT TO CHALLENGE HIS FACTUAL GUILT OR TO COMPLAIN ABOUT DISTRICT COURT RULINGS BEFORE THE PLEA. AND THEN A YEAR LATER,...
|
| 00:48:08 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DONE YGSNESS, AND HE IS PLAYING
|
| 00:48:11 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
NEXT TO A WOMAN WHO
|
| 00:48:13 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
HAS BEEN BRUTALLY SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AND IS DEAD. HE SAID BASED ON WHAT HE COULD RECALL, HE PROBABLY DID IT. AND THEN THE D.N.A. DIDN'T MATCH HIM AT...
|
| 00:49:21 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AND A
|
| 00:49:22 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DEFENDANT, THE QUESTION
|
| 00:49:24 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IS, IS THERE AN APPROPRIATE INTEREST
|
| 00:49:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IN THE RESTRICTION, OR IS
|
| 00:49:30 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IT NARROWLY OR APPROPRIATE LD TAILORED? >> HE MADE A LOT OF REPRESENTATIONS ABOUT HOW COUNSEL COULDN'T TALK ABOUT BRADY EXCULPATORY INFORMATION. WHAT...
|
| 00:49:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE ATTORNEY'S STATEMENTS DURING SINGH -- SENTENCING THAT LIFE IMPRISONMENT WAS APPROPRIATE FOR MOUSSAOUI. THEY HAD A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP, DIDN'T THEY?...
|
| 00:50:19 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE RELATIONSHIP. >> THAT WOULD CURE WHAT HAPPENED ON THE PLEA? >> WHAT I WAS GOING TO POINT OUT IS IN 2002, BEFORE MOUSSAOUI PLEADS GUILTY, HIS COUNSEL...
|
| 00:50:40 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THIS OR HE NEEDS
|
| 00:50:41 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO LEARN ABOUT IT. AND THE PLEA ENDS UP FALLING THROUGH BEFORE THEY GET
|
| 00:50:45 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO THAT. YOU FAST FORWARD TO 2005. YOU HAVE THIS COURT'S OPINION THERE IS EXCULPATORY INFORMATION OUT THERE, HE UNDERSTOOD THERE WAS STUFF OUT THERE....
|
| 00:51:43 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IS AN UTAH STANDING, AT THIS POINT, UNMITIGATED ORDER, AND YOU TAKE THE PLAY? HOW IS THAT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE DEFENDANT? THE COURT KNOWS THAT?...
|
| 00:52:18 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ISSUE OF THE SUBSTITUTIONS WAS COMING UP BEFORE THIS COURT, SHE ORDERS LIMITED DISCLOSURE OF SEVERAL CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS THAT SHE SAYS ARE IMPORTANT...
|
| 00:53:11 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
RIGHT AROUND THE TIME HE PLEADS GUILTY, THEY ARE WORKING THROUGH FURTHER SECTION FOUR DESIGNATIONS AND ISSUES. IF THEY HAD INFORMATION BEFORE THEM...
|
| 00:53:22 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THROUGH THIS, AND HE IS DECIDING
|
| 00:53:25 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO PLEAD GUILTY. IT IS QUITE STUNNING THAT SOMEONE SAYS WAIT A MINUTE, THIS IS SO IMPORTANT.
|
| 00:53:30 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE FACT IS BECAUSE HE KNEW ESSENTIALLY WHAT THE INFORMATION WAS. HE KNEW FROM THIS COURT THAT IT WAS SCULPTOR. THIS COURT GAVE HIM A ROAD MAP ON HOW...
|
| 00:54:06 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DECIDES HE DOESN'T WANT TO SEE IT. TELL ME IN THE RECORD WHERE HE DECIDED HE DID NOT WANT TO SEE IT. I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY THE CASE, BUT TELL...
|
| 00:54:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THAT HE DECIDED NOT TO READ IT OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT HE PLED? >> YOUR HONOR, I WOULD POINT TO THE PLEA COLLOQUY AND THE EX PARTE
|
| 00:54:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PROCEEDING TWO DAYS BEFORE WHERE HE CLEARLY SAYS MY COUNSEL IS TELLING ME NOT TO PLEAD. I UNDERSTAND I AM WAIVING ALL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS. EVERYONE...
|
| 00:54:43 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO DO. HE HAD THE LIMITED DISCLOSURE ORBLINGALLY. HE WAS THE ONE WHO MOVED FOR ACCESS TO THESE WITNESSESES. HE KNOWS IT IS COMING TO HIM. IF YOU LOOK...
|
| 00:55:33 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DELAYED IS JUSTICE DENIED. YOU ARE SAYING WELL, IF YOU WAIT LONG ENOUGH, YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THIS, BUT TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE IN THIS SITUATION?...
|
| 00:55:49 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
MENTAL CAPACITIES. HE WANTS TO
|
| 00:55:54 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ABORT THAT PROCESS AND PLEAD GUILTY. ISN'T NOW THE TIME TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE OPENED THOSE GATES OR AT LEAST THOSE ORDERS DOWN THAT ROAD HAVE BEEN OLD,...
|
| 00:56:38 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO BASICALLY HIJACK THE PROCEEDINGS AND SAY I WANT TO PLEAD GUILTY, AND NO ONE WOULD LET HIM PLEAD GUILTY, WHICH IS HIS RIGHT, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO WORK...
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| 00:57:19 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE TIMING, THE SUPREME COURT WAS DENIED CERT, AND HE PLED GUILTY A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO. THE DISTRICT COURT WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE SAID YOU CANNOT...
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| 00:57:37 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WITH LISTENING TO WHAT WE SAY? SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT? >> NOT AT ALL, YOUR HONOR, BUT ASMUSSEN STATES OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IT IS MY CONSTITUTIONAL...
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| 00:57:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PARTE HEARING. HE SAID THIS IS MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, AND I WANT TO DO IT. SO SHE MARCHES HIM THROUGH AGAIN, CAREFULLY
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| 00:58:06 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AND CAUTIOUSLY MAKES SURE THE CHARGES AGAINST HIM, THE RAMIFICATIONS OF PLEADING GUILTY. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION OTHER THAN TO...
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| 00:58:46 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
A THEORY OF MULTIPLE CONSPIRACIES. >> HOW LONG DID HE SIT IN PRISON AFTER WE RULED BEFORE
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| 00:58:53 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
HE PLED? >> YOUR HONOR, I BELIEVE YOUR OPINION CAME OUT IN DECEMBER OF 2004, AND HE PLEADS GUILTY IN APRIL OF 2005. >> IF WE WERE TO FIND THAT SOME...
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| 00:59:10 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CLAIMS HAVE MERIT, DOES THAT PERMIT US TO SET ASIDE THE PLEA? >> E.U.
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| 00:59:16 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DON'T THINK SO, -- I DON'T THINK SO. MOST OF THE APPEALS HE RAISED NOW HE DIDN'T RAISE
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| 00:59:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
BELOW. >> SO WE ARE WAITING FOR ANOTHER 2255? >> I DON'T KNOW, UNITED STATES. I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION. >> CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT
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| 00:59:38 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
REQUIREMENTS WERE PLACED ON ANY LAWYER THAT HE MIGHT RETAIN OR ATTEMPT TO RETAPE WITH REGARD TO REQUIRED
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| 00:59:48 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SECURITY CLEARANCES? >> YES, SIR. I HEARD HIM
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| 00:59:52 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SAY THAT THE JUDGE FROM THE DISTRICT
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| 00:59:57 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
COURT RULED THAT ANY ATTORNEY THOUGH REPRESENTED HIM WOULD HAVE TO BE NATIONALLY SECURITY CLEARED. WE RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE. THE PROTECTIVE ORDER SAYS...
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| 01:00:10 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
CLEARANCE -- IN APRIL OF 2002 HE HAS SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE HEARING I WANT TO WAIVE MY RIGHT TO COUNSEL, I WANT TO GO PRO S EMP, AND I WANT...
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| 01:02:09 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AND EVEN THEN SHE IS RELAXING ITS, SHE IS TRYING TO GET ANYBODY WHO MOUSSAOUI WILL COMMUNICATE WITH. >> BUT BROTHER FREEMAN WANTED TO REPRESENT AN EARLIER...
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| 01:02:42 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THINK I HAVE THE ANSWER. I DO NOT RECALL ANY WHERE IN THE RECORD BEFORE WHERE HE WAIVES HIS RIGHT TO COUNSEL AND MENTIONS BROTHER FREEMAN. >> I RECALL...
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| 01:02:56 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AND THERE WAS QUESTION AS TO WHETHER HE WOULD BE A LOT OF COUNSEL OF HIS CHOICE. AND THIS COUNCIL FROM TEXAS
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| 01:03:02 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
STEPPED UP AND WANTED TO REPRESENT HIM. >> I BELIEVE THAT IS IN THE SUMMER OF 2002 WHEN HE HAS ALREADY PRO SE AND I DO NOT THINK THERE IS ANY INDICATION...
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| 01:03:14 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
FOR A LONG TIME HE WAS HELD AND NO ONE COULD TALK TO HIM. AM I CORRECT ABOUT THAT? >> I AM NOT SURE THAT IS TRUE, YOUR HONOR. WHAT WE SITE IN OUR BRIEF...
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| 01:03:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WHERE THE JUDGE IS TRYING TO GET MOUSSAOUI LEGAL ADVICE AND WITH PEOPLE HE WOULD TRUST. AND HE IS CONSTANTLY REJECTING THEM. AND BROTHER
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| 01:03:37 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
FREEMAN, AGAIN, ONCE HE STARTS FILING PLEADINGS AND MOUSSAOUI
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| 01:03:43 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DEMAND HE BE AT COUNSEL TABLE, THE DISTRICT COURT WAS PATIENT AT EVERY TURN AND FINELY CUT HIM OFF. THEY SAID THAT HE COULD NOT FILE GHOST-WRITING PLEADINGS....
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| 01:04:21 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AND THE REVIEW OF CLASSIFIED MATERIAL IMPINGE UPON
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| 01:04:25 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
HIS FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHT TO SELF REPRESENTATION? >> NO, I DO NOT THINK IT DID, YOUR HONOR.
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| 01:04:34 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE RIGHT TO SELF REPRESENTATION, OF COURSE, IS NOT ABSOLUTE AND IS SUBJECT TO BALANCING. THIS COURT HAS SAID IN THE BUSH OPINION, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT...
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| 01:04:51 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
WAYS THE DEFENDANT'S INTEREST IN ACTING AS HIS OWN ATTORNEY. AND SO THE DISTRICT COURT USUALLY HAS BROAD DISCRETION WITH A PRO SE DEFENDANT TO IMPOSE...
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| 01:06:18 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SUFFICIENTLY NARROWS THE CLASS OF PEOPLE ELIGIBLE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY SO AS TO BE WITHIN CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS. THE ARGUMENT COULD BE MADE THAT MR....
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| 01:07:23 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
GOVERNMENT PROVED THE STATUTORY THRESHOLD FACTOR, THEN A TERM OF LIFE IS TAKEN OFF THE TABLE. THERE'S NOTHING IN THE STATUTE THAT SAYS THAT. IN REALITY,...
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| 01:08:38 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
QUESTION, A PROXIMATE CAUSE ISSUE. HE DID NOT TELL THEM
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| 01:08:42 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
EVERYTHING. BUT YOU DID NOT -- BUT HE DID NOT HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING. OBVIOUSLY, LYING IS NOT PROTECTED UNDER THE FIFTH AMENDMENT. WE KNOW THAT.
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| 01:08:52 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IS THAT ENOUGH TO SAY IT IS A DIRECT CAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSE BUYING IF ANOTHER CONSPIRATOR -- FROM ANOTHER CONSPIRATORS' ACT? THAT IS THE QUESTION. >> I...
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| 01:09:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
OUR BRIEF THE ENTIRE SUFFICIENCY QUESTION IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT BECAUSE NOT ONLY IS THE STATUE TTE -- NOTHING TAKES A TURN OF YEARS OFF THE TABLE....
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| 01:11:04 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THEY ARE TRYING TO SAY TO EVEN POTENTIAL JURORS, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO IMPOSE THE DEATH PENALTY BECAUSE HE IS GOING TO SPEND
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| 01:11:13 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE REST OF HIS LIFE IN JAIL. AND PLENTY OF CAPITAL DEFENSE COUNCIL CHOOSE THIS STRATEGY. AND IN THIS CASE, GIVEN HIS MANY EDITIONS THROUGHOUT THE...
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| 01:12:25 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
QUESTION WAS IN THIS FIRST PHASE, THAT A TERM OF YEARS IS TAKEN OFF. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE ACT THAT SAYS THAT. DEFENSE COUNSEL ALREADY TAKEN THAT OPTION...
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| 01:12:38 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
DONE AS EARLY AS THE JURY QUESTIONNAIRE. THEY WANTED TO BE ABLE TO SAY TO THE JURY THAT THEY DID NOT HAVE TO IMPOSE THE DEATH PENALTY. THERE IS NOTHING...
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| 01:14:04 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
REQUIREMENT THAT ALL COUNCIL RECEIVE APPROPRIATE SECURITY CLEARANCES BEFORE REVEALING CLASSIFIED INFORMATION. ON PAGE 98 OF THE JOINT APPENDIX THERE IS...
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| 01:14:47 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
NOT OF
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| 01:14:49 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
INAPRIL 22 IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN APRIL 22. THE JUDGE SAYS THE ATTORNEY -- IT WAS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR. HE OBJECTED TO IT AT LEAST 50 TIMES ON THE RECORD...
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| 01:17:32 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TO WAIT IT. THEY DID PRESERVE THIS OBJECTION.
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| 01:17:35 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
BUT IT WOULD BE A DEVASTATING RULING TO SAY THAT A DEFENDANT -- THAT YOU COULD CALL IT THE COUNCIL IF AT THE TIME OF THE PLEA THE DEFENSE COUNSEL HAS...
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| 01:22:16 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE DEFENSE AND THE GOVERNMENT OF DISINFORMATION. 5 WAS REALLY MEANT FOR THE SITUATION OF OLIVER NORTH. SO BEFORE THE CASE STARTS, THE DEFENDANT GETS...
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| 01:22:26 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
SO WHEN THAT POSITION THE DEFENDANT AND THE COUNCIL CAN TALK ABOUT IT AND EVERYBODY HAS THE INFORMATION. AND IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE, WHEN YOU GO TO DO...
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| 01:25:27 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
TRAINING SO YOU WOULD BE READY AS A PILOT TO FLY THE FIFTH PLANE INTO THE WHITE HOUSE. AND HE SAID CORRECT. AND THE REASON THAT YOU WANTED TO PLAY THE...
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| 01:26:10 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
PURPOSES OF THE COUNCIL PLEA YOU DO NOT SHOW PREJUDICE. THAT IS A STRUCTURAL ERROR. YOU DO NOT SHOW PREJUDICE, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT....
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| 01:26:24 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE COURT TO EXAMINE BRADY VIOLATION TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE CAUSE WOULD COST THE DEFENDANT TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS IF THEY HAD THAT INFORMATION,...
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| 01:28:47 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
IN THAT SCENARIO IF HE DID NOTHING MORE THAN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING -- I AM NOT ENTIRELY SURE. IF SOMEONE DIED AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THAT ACT THAT HE DID,...
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| 01:29:07 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
THE SCENARIO IS, HE SAYS I'M A TERRORIST. WE SENT SOME PEOPLE OUT THERE AND SOMEBODY DIES AS A RESULT OF HIS LIFE. -- AS A RESULT OF HIS LIE. THE SCENARIO...
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| 01:30:15 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
AGAINST AND IT IS A MEMBER OF AL QAEDA, AND WORK IN THE STATION THAT IS DEDICATED TO RISK IT IN PERSONAL FREEDOMS, SOMEHOW WAS -- SOME -- THAT IS DEDICATED...
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| 01:31:13 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
RULING YET REACHED ON JANUARY 26. -- THE
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| 01:31:20 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
FOURTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS HEARD THIS CASE IN RICHMOND, VA. ON JANUARY 26. THE COURT HAS NOT YET
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| 01:31:26 |
Unidentified Speaker, -
ISSUED A RULING. DURING THIS NEXT WEEK FOR "AMERICA AND THE COURSE", SATURDAY AT 7:00 EASTERN TIME ON C-SPAN. >>
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NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.