| 00:00:399 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Dr. Jan Dates, author, co author, actually, of the new book, "Split Image: African Americans in the Mass Media." What's it all about? |
| 00:00:481 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, there's so much -- I mean, we've got almost 500 pages. But "Split Image" -- we came out with that idea of calling it "Split Image" because we... |
| 00:02:221 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
But those are just the most prominent examples. There are so many others. And we talk about that kind of thing in the book. So what we're saying is... |
| 00:03:4048 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
At this point, we think it's so focused on the European contributions to the development of the various mass media. And we started doing it because... |
| 00:04:285 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Was it a difficult thing to do? Were you angry as you wrote this? |
| 00:04:332 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
No, I wasn't angry. What I was doing was I was trying to set the record straight. I was trying to let young people know, and hopefully make them feel... |
| 00:06:342 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who was Marcus Garvey? |
| 00:06:361 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Who was Marcus Garvey? Who? Well, Marcus Garvey did so many things. I think there were about eight or nine publications that he started as a newspaperman,... |
| 00:07:418 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You split this book up in -- as you said earlier, in many different ways, in films and records and all that. What did you concentrate on? |
| 00:07:4957 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I was co editor. I think that was one of things I'd like to make sure you know. And William Barlow -- Dr. William Barlow, who is associate professor... |
| 00:08:461 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
So we called some people who had written chapters in this book and that book -- it was like Chapter 10 in one book and Chapter 9 in another book --... |
| 00:10:171 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
And I contend that the reason that we had trouble getting it published is the same reason that we wrote the book: because the decision makers in the... |
| 00:11:331 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
So I took that to some of those publishers and said the same kind of thing. "Yes, indeed, we do, in fact, have an audience out there. There are people... |
| 00:13:1810 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
But what is it you see today in the mass media that makes you the most irritated about the way blacks are portrayed? Give me an example. |
| 00:13:2814 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I guess one of the things that irritates me is what happened with Spike Lee's film, as opposed to "Driving Miss Daisy." |
| 00:13:422 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Which one are you talking about now, "Do the Right Thing"? |
| 00:13:441 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
"Do the Right Thing." That was the one that was out at the same time. And, you know, I mean, "Driving Miss Daisy" was the film that got the award. It... |
| 00:15:081 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
I think we need to be uncomfortable somewhat in order to straighten out our own house. We need to do some soul searching and we need to think about... |
| 00:16:362 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What do you think of Norman Lear? |
| 00:16:382 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I think he was trying to do some positive things and he was on the cutting edge at the point in time when he was doing "The Jeffersons" and "Baby,... |
| 00:19:023 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why do you think the white male dominates the media business? |
| 00:19:052 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, the white male dominates this society. And you're asking why? I mean -- all right, I'll tell you why I think it's true and I'm sure people who... |
| 00:21:177 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Is the white male going to be there in control forever? |
| 00:21:241 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
I don't think so. And I think that we're at a transition period right now. By the year 2000, a third of the nation will be non white. And that number... |
| 00:23:203 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You talk about integration. Is it a good thing? |
| 00:23:233 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, you know, I really was working for integration as a young person. I thought that was the answer. I was much more arrogant then. Today I think... |
| 00:26:5816 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let me ask you about something specific that this white man has gone through in the last couple of months, and I want to ask you to explain it. This... |
| 00:27:141 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Certainly. |
| 00:27:1525 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Owned by Cathy Hughes. And any of our listeners or anybody listening to it has heard Cathy basically say, "Vote for the black. Don't you dare vote for... |
| 00:27:405 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, on the issue of politics, you know -- that's not my area, but I will just say what my thoughts ... |
| 00:27:451 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Well, the reason I -- let me tell you why I asked you. |
| 00:27:46 |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
OK. |
| 00:27:4611 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
It is a black owned radio station, clearly, and she makes a very strong point of that. It's a black business and makes the point of saying, "You should... |
| 00:27:571 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, part of the reason that you have Cathy Hugheses in the world saying things like this -- and she's not the only one; many African Americans are... |
| 00:29:271 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
I think what you have the Cathy Hugheses of the world doing is saying is we've been shut out of this; we've been shut out of that. We no longer have... |
| 00:31:171 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
And that's an argument that is a good point. But I think white Americans have to realize, too, and look, too, at what the reality is. We have a situation... |
| 00:32:522 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let me show the audience this book ... |
| 00:32:541 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Sure. |
| 00:32:5511 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
... so they know what we're talking about. It's called "Split Image: African Americans in the Mass Media." And it's co authored by Dr. Jan Dates, who's... |
| 00:33:061 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
At Howard. |
| 00:33:071 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
... at Howard University. |
| 00:33:082 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Co edited, actually. We edited and then... |
| 00:33:101 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Oh, but you wrote a lot, though. |
| 00:33:116 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Yeah, I did. I wrote four chapters and Dr. Barrow and I did the introduction and the conclusion, as I mentioned. Yes. |
| 00:33:172 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
All right. Let me ask you another one of these trick questions on -- like... |
| 00:33:191 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Sure. |
| 00:33:207 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
...on WOL. We have Black Entertainment Television. What would happen if we had a White Entertainment Television? |
| 00:33:2733 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Whites are in the dominant posture. Black Entertainment Television tells black people that these programs really are designed to meet some of the needs... |
| 00:34:0016 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
OK. And let me just ask you, where does this all lead to 10, 20 years from now? Do we end up, some day, being segregated again -- whites watching one... |
| 00:34:162 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I would hope -- I don't think that we can survive like that. And it seems to me this book is part of the contribution to our getting the perspective... |
| 00:36:4612 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who are your -- we talked about Marcus Garvey for a while. I shouldn't suggest he is a hero of yours, but let me ask you, who are you heroes in over... |
| 00:36:582 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Black media heroes? |
| 00:37:006 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
The people that were pioneers, that you have the most respect for when you teach the history of black media involvement. |
| 00:37:0614 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, as you know, there are not a lot, but of those who are there and who are able to get through the system, you have, of course, the Bill Cosbys... |
| 00:37:201 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Got some pictures here. We'll show some of them. |
| 00:37:211 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
All right. And you've got the Oprah Winfreys and the Debbie Allens and there are others. Today, in the commercial television and public television industry,... |
| 00:38:401 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Many people who saw the first program in that series recall -- even 10 years later, 15 years later, will say "I cried like a baby when I saw that show.... |
| 00:40:181 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
It's the respect, I think, that we're talking about, more than anything. It's the authenticity and the feeling of trying to show it as it truly is to... |
| 00:41:395 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When do you find yourself being upset with Tony Brown? What kind of things don't you like that he's done? |
| 00:41:442 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I guess they aren't things that are public so much. There are some things that I know about him because I know people who know him, so they aren't... |
| 00:44:2019 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You have a long piece in here -- three or four pages long -- written by Phyllis Crockett of National Public Radio. She's done a number of shows with... |
| 00:44:391 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Right. |
| 00:44:408 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I'll paraphrase; the message that I got from what she wrote is that NPR has been discriminatory. |
| 00:44:4814 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Yes, very much so. And they haven't changed. I think probably NPR is as narrowly focused today as it has been through the years. |
| 00:45:025 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Can I just interrupt to ask you -- this is a pretty tough piece on NPR, and she's still working there? |
| 00:45:074 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
As far as I know she is. |
| 00:45:116 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why would she agree to write this tough a piece about the place she's working? Does it work in her favor when she does something like that? |
| 00:45:1713 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
No, but I think that she was so angry that she was willing to take the chance. I could tell you some other stories, but I won't do that. |
| 00:45:307 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
But what was the tough thing about her rise to being a White House correspondent for NPR? |
| 00:45:372 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
What was the tough thing? |
| 00:45:392 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What was so tough about it? What was the route ...? |
| 00:45:411 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I mean ... |
| 00:45:421 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
... for her to get there? |
| 00:45:431 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well, I mean, the story is told in there. She had experience. She had worked in the industry. Someone who was her counterpart who was white would have... |
| 00:47:1216 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let me read some of what she said and get your reaction to it. "At one point, I tried to organize the remaining African Americans at NPR to press for... |
| 00:47:282 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Yes. |
| 00:47:301 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Normal? |
| 00:47:3158 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Probably. Probably normal behavior because many people would say, "At least I'm here. I've got enough food to pay the rent. My children can go to school.... |
| 00:48:292 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Head of the news department. |
| 00:48:311 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
OK. |
| 00:48:323 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I mean, vice president for news. The news boss. |
| 00:48:352 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
OK. No longer there. He might not agree with this. I don't know, because I don't know him at all. But it seems to me that he was trying to do some very... |
| 00:50:3711 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Phyllis Crockett also writes, "Above my typewriter at work, I have this quotation from Frederick Douglass, the great order and abolitionist." Quote,... |
| 00:50:4851 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
And I say that all the time to students, because I believe it. "If there is no struggle, there is no progress, there is no growth." No one is going... |
| 00:51:3921 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
"Looking forward" -- this Phyllis Crockett again of NPR -- "Looking forward, I don't believe there will be much change for African Americans in journalism.... |
| 00:52:003 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Well... |
| 00:52:037 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
"Those raised in a black cultural environment know the difference." She goes on, saying, "Few whites know these cultural differences." And I wanted... |
| 00:52:102 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Oh, well, she's talking, I think, about skin color -- you know, hue; the fact that if -- and I guess that it's true, generally -- people tend to hire... |
| 00:54:192 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why have you done so well in this society? |
| 00:54:212 min. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
I don't know, because I'll tell you, I grew up in the projects in Baltimore City. My mother was a single parent who was raising three daughters. She... |
| 00:56:3716 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
This is what the book looks like. It's published by Howard University publishers. And this is "Split Image," the title, "African Americans in the Mass... |
| 00:56:5350 sec. |
Dates, Jannette - Associate Dean
Thank you. I enjoyed it. |