| 00:01:01 |
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NOT AN EMPLOYEE OF C-SPAN. >> Host: I'M HERMAN BELZ AND I'M DELIGHTED TO WELCOME NICHOLAS LEMANN AUTHOR OF "REDEMPTION: THE LAST BATTLE OF THE CIVIL...
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| 00:01:27 |
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OF RESEARCH ON THIS BOOK, AND IT'S VERY ACTIVE AND A FINALLY WRITTEN BOOK. WHAT IS "REDEMPTION". WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO IN THE BOOK AND WHAT INSPIRED...
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| 00:02:01 |
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DEEP SOUTH AND YOU'RE WHITE, REDEMPTION WAS THE WORD THAT WAS USED FOR THE END OF RECONSTRUCTION. RECONSTRUCTION WAS VIEWED IN THE WHITE SOUTH AS...
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| 00:04:55 |
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WALT WHITMAN THAT IS WITHOUT WHITMAN KNOWING LINCOLN WAS GOING TO BE THE PRESIDENT WHEN HE WROTE THE BOOK IN 1856. THE COUNTRY NEEDS A REDEEMER PRESIDENT....
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| 00:06:14 |
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ARE SO FAMILIAR WITH THE CIVIL WAR THAT IT'S A LITTLE PRESUMPTUOUS TO SAY THIS, BUT IN A CERTAIN WAY WE'VE FORGOTTEN WHAT THE CIVIL WAR WAS ABOUT BECAUSE...
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| 00:08:21 |
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OF THE TREATMENTS QUESTION OR THE POST EMANCIPATION QUESTION WAS NOT ONLY SALIENT BUT WAS ESSENTIAL. SO WHILE AGREEING WITH YOU THAT WHAT TO USE THE...
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| 00:09:55 |
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THOUGHT TO HAVE BEEN SYMPATHETIC TO THE SOUTH SUCCEEDED HIM. THERE WERE VARIOUS SCHEMES TO TAKE LAND AWAY FROM PLANTATION OWNERS AND GIVE THEM TO FREED...
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| 00:10:49 |
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SLAVERY. THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THEN BEGAN
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| 00:10:52 |
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STRIKING BACK IN VARIOUS WAYS. IT WAS THROUGH THIS DRAMA THAT ANDREW JOHNSON WAS IMPEACHED AND THAT THE CONGRESSIONAL OR RADICAL PHASE OF RECONSTRUCTION...
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| 00:12:43 |
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UP >> Host: IN 1870 AND 1871 IMPORTANT CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION WAS ADOPTED TO ENFORCE
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| 00:12:48 |
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THE 14TH AMENDMENT AND 15TH AMENDMENT. SO ONE MIGHT SAY UP TO 1871, THE ENFORCEMENT PROBLEM HAD NOT
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| 00:13:05 |
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BEEN MUCH THOUGHT ABOUT, NOT TO SAY DEALT WITH BECAUSE THE PROBLEMS -- THE RECONSTRUCTION PROBLEM FROM 1865 TO 1870, WITH THE ADOPTION OF THE 15TH AMENDMENT,...
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| 00:13:50 |
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ENFORCEMENT LAWS WERE CALLED
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| 00:13:53 |
Host, -
KLU
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| 00:13:54 |
Guest, -
KLUX LAWS. THERE WAS ALMOST INSTANTLY THE IDEAS THAT THE 14TH AND 15TH AMENDMENT WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE VOLUNTARILY PUT INTO LAW BY SELF-GOVERNING SOUTHERN...
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| 00:14:31 |
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RECONSTRUCTION. IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, TOO, THAT HEYDAY OF RADICAL RECONSTRUCTION INVOLVED THE MILITARY RECONSTRUCTION ACT OF 1867 WHICH SAID IN...
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| 00:16:05 |
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SYMPATHETIC TO WHITES IN THE SOUTH. IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PIECE OF BACKGROUND SO WHENEVER FEDERAL TROOPS WERE SENT TO THE SOUTH TO ENFORCE THE 14TH AND...
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| 00:17:07 |
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SO >> Host: RIGHT >> Guest: INCLUDING BY LIBERALS. THERE WAS A MASS MEETING IN BOSTON AND COOPER UNION IN NEW YORK TO PROTEST THE SORT OF LIBERAL...
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| 00:17:22 |
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TIME, PROTESTED VOCIFEROUSLY. SO IT'S A POLICY THAT
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| 00:17:28 |
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WORKED
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| 00:17:29 |
Guest, -
AGAIN IN THE NARROW SENSE, BUT GRANT WAS NOT ABLE TO MUSTER A BROAD CONCENSUS AROUND IT, SO IT CREATES A PROBLEM TRYING TO DO SOMETHING WHEN THERE ISN'T...
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| 00:18:09 |
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HAVE BEEN SHORT CIRCUITED OR CURTAILED BUT IN OUR COMMENTS HERE YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT THE FORCES WERE -- POLITICAL FORCES WERE BEING AGAINST HIM ...
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| 00:18:45 |
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THEN THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. BY OUR LIGHTS THAT WAS THE WRONG DECISION. HAD HE SENT -- THAT HE DID NOT SEND TROOPS MEANT THAT THE ELECTION OF 1875...
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| 00:21:03 |
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WITH THE EMERGING REDEEMER MOVEMENTS. I WANT TO SAY THOUGH, I THINK YOUR TREATMENT OF GENERAL AMES WHO THEN BECAME SENATOR AMES AND THEN GOVERNOR...
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| 00:22:16 |
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WAR. HE THEN WENT TO MISSISSIPPI, WAS THE MILITARY RULER OF MISSISSIPPI, THEN BECAME A SENATOR FROM MISSISSIPPI, AND THEN GOVERNOR OF MISSISSIPPI. HE...
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| 00:23:53 |
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DISABUSED YOURSELF OF THAT >> Guest: SO THEREFORE I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S FAIR TO SAY HE'S A CUT ABOVE THE USUAL CARPETBAGGER. HE WAS CERTAINLY AN HONEST...
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| 00:24:03 |
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WELL INTENTIONED GOVERNOR OF MISSISSIPPI. YOU KNOW, THERE'S A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF MYTHOLOGY ABOUT CARPETBAGGERS BEING CORRUPT AND, YOU KNOW, WE CAN
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| 00:24:13 |
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GO THROUGH CASE BY CASE. SOME WERE,
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| 00:24:15 |
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SOME WEREN'T. AMES WAS OFTEN ACCUSED OF BEING CORRUPT BUT HE PRETTY MUCH WON THE ARGUMENT AND WAS ABLE TO ESTABLISH IN HIS LONG EXILE FROM MISSISSIPPI...
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| 00:25:19 |
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HAPPENED -- THIS ALL WAS OVER BY THE TIME HE WAS 40, AND HE LIVED
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| 00:25:24 |
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ANOTHER 45 YEARS OR SOMETHING SO HE HAD A VERY EVENTFUL LIFE. >> Host: RECONSTRUCTION POLICY INVOLVED CIVIL RIGHTS -- FIRST OF ALL, CITIZENSHIP AND...
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| 00:25:57 |
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QUOTE YOUR TEXT, THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION DEPENDED ON THE FREED SLAVES ORGANIZING ABILITIES AND ON THE RELIABILITY OF THEIR VOTING RIGHTS. FROM THESE...
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| 00:27:13 |
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OF THE GORY DETAILS IN THE BOOK BUT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SHOWED UP AT POLLS WITH GUNS AND CANONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND POINTED THEM AT BLACK PEOPLE...
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| 00:27:43 |
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| 00:27:51 |
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Host: NICHOLAS LEMANN IS OUR GUEST, AND WE'RE DISCUSSING HIS IMPORTANT NEW BOOK "REDEMPTION" CONCERNING THE RECONSTRUCTION PROBLEMS IN THE SOUTH AFTER...
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| 00:29:28 |
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FORWARD SPIN ON YOUR PREVIOUS QUESTION AND SAY THAT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING ME IN A SENSE IS, TODAY WE TEND TO THINK CIVIL SOCIETY IS SO IMPORTANT THAT...
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| 00:29:43 |
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THAN VOTING RIGHTS WHY IS IT MORE IMPORTANT IN THIS INSTANCE OR ARE THEY? A COUPLE THINGS, FIRST OF ALL, BLACK POLITICAL ORGANIZATION IN THE SOUTH...
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| 00:34:24 |
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VERY CENTRALITY OF SUFFERAGE IN POLITICAL COMMUNITIES AT THAT TIME, WHICH LEADS TO A QUESTION CONCERNING THE SOUTHERN WHITES. YOU TREAT THE SOUTHERN...
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| 00:36:06 |
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IS BASED, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND ANY WHITE FIGURE WHO ISN'T BY OUR STANDARDS -- WELL, I DON'T WANT TO EVEN USE THE WORD BY OUR STANDARDS,...
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| 00:37:54 |
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SLAVES WERE ABLE TO CONSTRUCT FOR THEMSELVES UNDER SLAVERY, THEY
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| 00:38:00 |
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HAD SUBSUB
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| 00:38:04 |
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SUBMATERIAL FOOTAGES. AND IT WAS SUICIDAL AND THIS CARRIED OVER INTO THE RECONSTRUCTION AREA IN THE SENSE IT IS NOTESABLE FOR THE FACT THAT THE BLACKS...
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| 00:39:27 |
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REMOVED FROM SLAVERY? >> Guest: THEY GOT
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| 00:39:29 |
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THE NEXT BEST THING. >> Host: YOU MAY BE UNDULY INFLUENCED BY YOUR SOUTHERN UPBRINGINGINGS UPBRINGINGINGS? >> Guest: THE NEXT BEST THING IN A PLACE LIKE...
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| 00:39:49 |
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BUT IT WAS NOT ANYTHING LIKE CONDITIONS IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. >>
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| 00:39:54 |
Host, -
Host: BUT IT WASN'T LEGAL SURFDOM, BUT THE
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| 00:40:02 |
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CASES WOULD BE THE LEGAL SURFDOM AND WHEN THEY WERE TESTED IT WAS INVALIDATED? >> Guest: WELL, REMEMBER THAT BLACK PEOPLE IN MOST OF THE SOUTH, NOT 100%...
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| 00:40:17 |
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TIME, BUT MOST OF THE TIME, COULD NOT VOTE AND DID NOT HAVE RECOURSE TO LAW, SO JUST A REAL SIMPLE THING. A WHITE PERSON COULD KILL A BLACK PERSON...
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| 00:40:33 |
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IS A VERY VIOLENT PERIOD, THERE'S HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF BLACK PEOPLE GET KILLED BY WHITE PEOPLE AND THERE'S ALMOST NO PROSECUTION OF THAT AT ALL....
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| 00:41:35 |
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AN INDIVIDUAL OWNER BUT THEY ARE THE SERVANTS OF THE COMMUNITY. THEY ARE KIND OF BOUND TO THE COMMUNITY. >> Guest: WELL, EVEN MORE -- IT'S MORE EXTREME...
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| 00:42:03 |
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THEY WANTED TO AND IF THE FORMER SLAVES WERE HERE, THEY WOULD SAY BECAUSE THERE WASN'T ANY OTHER OPTION. AND SO THEY WERE LIVING IN A CONDITION VERY,...
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| 00:43:19 |
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PROBLEM OF THE COLOR LINE. WAS THE PROBLEM OF THE 19TH CENTURY WAS THE PROBLEM OF RECONSTRUCTION THE PROBLEM OF THE COLOR LINE OR DID HE SAY THAT...
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| 00:44:16 |
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TO CREATE -- TO SORT OF DETERMINE WHAT WOULD BE THE ECONOMIC AND LEGAL STATUS OF FREED SLAVES IN THE SOUTH IN PARTICULAR IN THE UNITED STATES IN GENERAL....
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| 00:46:10 |
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THAT DUBOIS' -- HE THOUGHT THERE WAS A SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM OF THE COLOR LINE, AND THAT IS TO ELIMINATE THE COLOR LINE? >> Guest: WELL, I'M NOT SURE...
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| 00:46:41 |
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MORE OF AN ECONOMIC TAKE. BUT I THINK HE WOULD SAY IN 1903 THE JIM CROW LAWS HAVE TO GO, RIGHT? WOULDN'T YOU AGREE WITH THAT? >> Host: YES, DEFINITELY....
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| 00:47:18 |
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TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT KIND OF CIVIL SOCIETY AND, OF COURSE, WASHINGTON WAS NOT OBLIVIOUS OF THE DISENFRANCHISEMENT, BUT AS YOU KNOW AS I KNOW, DUBOIS...
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| 00:48:40 |
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NOT SAY THE SITUATION BETWEEN THE RACES AND THE INTERNAL SITUATION OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS TODAY IN 2006 IS KIND OF -- IT WAS EVER THUS -- IT WAS THE ...
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| 00:49:20 |
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WERE
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| 00:49:21 |
Guest, -
THEN. >> Host: YEAH. IN THE COURSE OF THE BOOK YOU TALK
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| 00:49:28 |
Host, -
ABOUT
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| 00:49:29 |
Guest, -
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| 00:49:31 |
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MYTHOLOGIES AND MYTHS PLAYING A ROLE
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| 00:49:33 |
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IN HISTORY. THAT'S RELATED TO A BRANCH -- A STRAND OF HISTORICAL
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| 00:49:41 |
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STUDY THESE DAYS CALLED "MEMORY STUDIES", AND YOU HAVE A QUOTATION IN HERE WHERE YOU SAY THAT POLITICS AND RACIAL ATTITUDES GET INTERTWINED AND IT'S...
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| 00:50:57 |
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WHICH I'M DOING IN THE BOOK, WE'RE SELECTING WHICH STORY TO TELL. AND I DON'T THINK TODAY -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC...
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| 00:52:38 |
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A FAILURE. NOW, I'LL SAY PHONER BOOK, ERIC PHONER'S BOOK IS A FINE BOOK, EVEN HANDED. I MYSELF DOESN'T THINK RECONSTRUCTION WAS A COLOSSAL FAILURE...
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| 00:55:05 |
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FOR ACADEMIC HISTORIANS TO PURSUE SEEING RECONSTRUCTION THROUGH THE LENS OF ALL THAT LIST YOU TIPPED OFF. I MEAN, JUST THE MOST -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL,...
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| 00:55:54 |
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AND --. >>
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| 00:55:55 |
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Host: EXACTLY. DEMOCRACY RECONSTRUCTION AND I THINK THAT'S VERY APT. I AGREE WITH YOU THESE THINGS -- THE CONTEMPORARY
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| 00:56:02 |
Host, -
WORLD POLITICAL
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| 00:56:03 |
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CONTEXT IS SOMETHING WHICH IS GOING TO AFFECT THE WAY WE LOOK BACK AND IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING WITH THE BEGINNING OF THE CIVIL WAR IN WHICH SECESSION...
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| 00:56:15 |
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MORE SYMPATHETICLY UNDERSTOOD BY A LOT OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA. EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY BY POLITICAL THEORISTS WHO ARE RECOGNIZING AND THEY CAN'T HELP BUT...
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| 00:57:23 |
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A POLITICAL SCIENTIST NAMED DONALD HOROWITZ CALLED THE DEADLY ETHNIC CONFLICT. >> Host: YEAH, I KNOW DONALD,
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NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.