Ms. Van Gelder.

Miles Ehrlich.

Yes, Congressman.

No objection.

That is correct.

Nothing of this kind. And if I may, I would like to

correct the record, as is contained in my written testimony, that I

was not the person...

At the--I was operating as a Nonexecutive

Chairman--

I have never dealt with an investigation of this

kind of a board of directors with respect to a leak of confidential

information.

I have not, to my knowledge.

Not to my knowledge.

Not that I have knowledge of.

Yes, ma'am.

No.

I think you're referring to a report I'm familiar

with; yes, it was provided to me on or about April 6 of 2006.

Well, I remember it, and I certainly did focus on

that footnote.

At the time I had the report, of course, I was asked to deal with

the...

I was concerned by the scope of the

investigation as evidenced by the report, and I did focus on that

footnote.

At that point in time I did nothing further. I had

discussions with Ms. Baskins. I asked her about the performance

of the investigation...

I did not supervise this investigation. I initiated it

at the request of the Board.

No, she never asked me. At the time I got the

report, I was not asked about it whatsoever.

The fact is this investigation was conducted...

Yes, I am.

I do not know what normally goes on except what

I have been told.

It would not come to my attention if it were the

case. As a nonemployee, nonmanager, outside director, I really

can't answer your question...

I initiated it at the request of the Board as

Nonexecutive Chairman. And I would like to just add, this is an

unusual position in corporate...

I have.

I recall the e-mail.

I knew what--yes, I did. And--

At no time in any part of this investigation was I

responsible for designing its methods.

I asked for this to be done in the HP standard way.

This did raise a concern to me. I did not want to be at any point

the person to whom...

I sent the team to management to get approval for

their techniques.

Mr. Hurd.

I think there is some evidence that he was aware of

this and--

I don't remember a conversation. I remember

telling the team that basically they had come to the wrong person

for approval, that was not...

If I were going to have concern, it would have

been expressed to Mr. Hurd.

I asked him to look into it and to give his opinion.

I understand that he did give a--I don't know

whether it was verbal, an e-mail or by an in-person meeting, but

that they gained the approval...

No, ma'am.

I read it, but I wasn't familiar with it. Other

than what was--

Congresswoman, at that time that was not my

focus that I was retained to do.

No one.

No one.

As part of my written testimony, I submitted the

job description for the Nonexecutive Chairman that was approved

by our Board. And it is...

No.

I served at the pleasure of the Board.

I chair the Board meetings--I did chair the Board

meetings until my resignation last week.

That is correct, sir. And in the submission, there is

a detailed chart of some of the leaks that were the most serious and

undermining...

After I became Chairman, I became highly

cognizant of deep schisms between various individuals on the

Board.

Yes. The first inquiry into leaks actually began

under the administration of Carly Fiorina, who was Chairman and

CEO until February of...

I believe there were nine independent directors at

that time, including myself, and two members of management--one

member until Mark Hurd...

I was directed in one-on-one conversations, about

which I have submitted my notes to this committee, by seven of

the nine directors that...

Seven of nine.

There was never a vote collectively.

He was not.

It was.

I believe it did use pretexting.

I'm sorry, I've just been corrected. I don't know.

Mr. Chairman, in the sense of the word that we're

all using pretexting today, which is the fraudulent

misrepresentation of identity, a form...

You work for us, we need this work done.

He was not with Hewlett-Packard in the period

when I was first named Chairman.

No.

I went to Mr. Bob Wayman, who is the

long-serving CFO of Hewlett-Packard, arguably the CFOs' CFO.

He was a fellow director of the company, who, in

his role as a director and a fiduciary, was as concerned about these

leaks as any other...

Yes, it is, sir.

He was one of the seven, yes, sir.

Not directly, but as noted in the reporting

relationships chart, he had control over all of the functions that are

involved in security...

There was never any question in my mind that the

Board expected this investigation to be done not only legally, but

ethically.

I did provide background to the investigators, as I

was told was the normal process in these matters, about who

wished and who did not wish...

Mr. Congressman, I am under a completely

separate entity within the Hewlett-Packard organization, and with

no common point of management...

Yes, sir. In this particular time I was; sometimes

I functioned as the sole investigator, depending on the

circumstances and where jurisdiction...

If I understood why you wanted it--

In your position? I would give you my phone

records.

I hope that doesn't mean you have something to

hide.

Mr. Chairman, may I make a comment on Mr.

Barton's--

I understand that, sir.

I will comment on that. I regret that comment; it

doesn't characterize my state of mind. I may have been trying in

some kind of, in retrospect,...

The direct answer is no. The context is this was a

PowerPoint presentation that was given in a meeting room--

I don't know that every page was actually shown.

I was interested in pages 12 and 13, which focused on the work

that had been done to try...

I have no knowledge--I have no direct knowledge.

I learned after this document, and I can't pinpoint

the date, but probably sometime after the release of Mr.

Hunsaker's report, that a security...

I was unaware of all of those activities until I read

about them in the press within the last week or two as these

documents started to...

No. I would like to specify that I became aware

that reporters had been pretexted by Ms. Baskins on--I believe it

was September 6, it was...

Well, first I have to say that I never remember

seeing this piece of paper; it may or may not have been presented.

My view is that it wasn't--

May I finish answering your first question?

Thank you, Madam Congresswoman--I never

knew if I was Chairman or Chairwoman.

The fact is that I believe that these methods may, in fact,...

That I never heard, but my point is--and I'll wind

up. But companies do a lot of this type of work to protect the

interests of our shareholders,...

I would like to try and interpret, if I may. I believe

I told Mr. Schatz that it was possible that I had seen the word

"pretext," not that...

It is my sworn testimony that until July of 2006, I

was unaware that the fraudulent misrepresentation of identity was

a part of the standard...

I am, sir.

That document reflects, sir, the investigation we

made and the information we received from the parties we

interviewed.

I do. I think there are also references in this

document to my request and ongoing, both seeking and receiving

of assurances that everything...

I never understood that to be the case, sir.

I wish he were here so we can talk about it.

I dispute having ever understood or being told that

the fraudulent use of identity was a part of this investigation. And

I would add that...

I'm one of them.

I have read that e-mail. I don't agree with its

characterization of my giving it the thumbs up. I said it needed to

be approved by management.

Sir, I am testifying here under oath; Mr. DeLia is

not. I think I will leave it at that.

May I answer, sir?

The question was, what was his role?

That this particular element of the investigation

could not go forward without his approval.

That is correct. If you would like, I'll give you

some details on that.

I began as a director at Hewlett-Packard in 1998. I

was required by the company I worked for to renet I think 25

percent of my director's...

Thank you for giving me the chance to do that.

One of the pieces of advice that I received earliest in this process

from the investigative...

Especially that they had to know I had responded

to their request and I was taking steps.

It was not.

Never.

Never.

Well, let me say that with respect to Ms. Fiorina's

reviews, I don't know that they were ever written. If they were I

was never privy to...

That rang a bell with me, which is why just as in

every other case, I did not see myself as the right person to approve

methods. I am not...

The first time I heard about the Kona 1 and

Kona 2 investigations, I believe was a note I received from Pattie

Dunn on or about March 15th...

Yes.

Well, I subsequently learned that the outside

counsel referred to was counsel--made by John Kiernan. I believe

that he was counsel specifically...

I am one of many outside counsels that

Hewlett-Packard uses, yes, but this reference is clearly not to

Wilson Sonsini.

I think our subsequent investigation clearly is at

odds with these conclusions at that time, yes.

And these conclusions at the time, as my e-mail

points out, are based upon two separate reports I received from the

HP legal department...

Well, this all came to light during my

investigation, which took place between August 9th, I believe, and

August 23rd, so that is the period...

No ma'am, I did not. Not at all. I wasn't

familiar, quite frankly, with sub-rosa investigations. In 40 years of

practicing law I have...

With all due respect--

With all due respect, I am not chastising

Mr. Perkins.

Quite the contrary. I am being forthright as I can be

to lay out to him everything...

No, I do not.

Did you say page 20, sir?

Sir, could you please restate your question? I

want to make sure I perfectly understand you.

I am sorry. I am not trying to be smart about this.

I do have a slight hearing deficit and I am having difficulty.

I don't fully understand the question.

Thank you.

Yes, sir. I see it.

This message occurred between myself and my

co-investigator, Vincent Nye. This message went back and forth

between us after a meeting on...

This issue had already been broached the

previous day with a statement by, I believe it was Mr. DeLia, that

they had obtained call information...

Essentially, myself and Mr. Nye did. We went

to--we went to--Mr. Nye went to Mr. Gentilucci, as we have

already seen testimony up here...

The suspense level?

The level of whose involvement?

I have only hearsay to offer to Mr. Hunsaker's

statements, and that was she was being reported to during the

course of the investigation...

No, I did not.

I have no knowledge of that.

The pretexting?

It could be.

I believe--well, I don't know. It was in my

e-mail, but I know the committee has received quite a bit of it, so I

don't know.

I don't know. That was between Mr. Hunsaker

and Ann Baskins and Ms. Dunn. I have no knowledge.

I understand.

That was my idea.

Yes, at the time I understood it to be a legally

permissible way to obtain information. And I still believe it to be

as such. It is--it...

I beg your pardon, sir.

A wiretap is normally considered a real-time

interception. This is not a real-time interception. It is also the

interception of personal...

I didn't go through your mail.

That is correct.

Correct.

I have no idea.

I was not copied on this e-mail and I am seeing it

for the first time here.

No, sir.

It is kind of surprising that it is legal, isn't it?

It should never have happened. I would like to

add that 99.999 percent of Hewlett-Packard's employees live up to

the statement you just...

I believe it to be so. There is a site called

readnotify.com.

A little bit over 3 years now.

Personally?

I would have to venture a guess at maybe a

dozen, 2 dozen times.

In investigating corporate issues such as theft, as

I said. Also we assisted law enforcement, just recently in locating

an at-risk child...

No, we have not, not to my knowledge.

Yes.

No, I am familiar with it, Congressman. At the

time of that communication, I think you are referring to my June

e-mail to Mr. Perkins,...

Yes. I was asked to do this by Ann Baskins. I

was asked to respond to Mr. Perkins.

Absolutely. After we did conduct an

investigation and I had the opportunity to look into the matter and

had the opportunity to research...

I subsequently learned that. When we did our

investigation in August, we looked at those statutes and we saw

that the law was rapidly changing...

No, I didn't, sir. As I indicated, I didn't know

about the methodologies going on then and I am no expert. I

didn't even know the law...

Yes, sir, it is.

It is fraud. It is the fraudulent misrepresentation of

identity. It is wrong.

I would have gone through the management chain.

I did not supervise the investigators, but I would have either

brought it to the attention...

They did provide me progress reports, but I was

not the supervisor of this investigation. I had no role in

management. Other people were...

I got just updates, and I was focused on the results.

I had--I think there were three meetings over the

course of--

The course of 13 months.

I was told in I think it was April or May, I have

testified earlier, April 2005, that phone records were involved and I

was informed of...

If I may offer, I think, the word "pretexting" is a

pretext. It is meant to confuse.

My understanding is that my opening statement is

a part of my full submission.

May I answer your question, sir?

I will repeat what I said in my opening statement.

I deeply regret that so many people were badly affected.

Including me, that was said in my opening

statement. And I would like to tell you what I would do

differently--

If I knew then what I know now, I would have

done things very differently and there are some specific things I

would have done very differently.

It is a foundational component of corporate

governance that directors must rely on the reasonable

representations of management.

And those I did have.

Absolutely.

Sir, I do not accept personal responsibility for

what happened.

I have done so, sir.

I will do so again, if you like.

I resigned because the Board of Hewlett-Packard

asked me to resign a week ago Friday. Last Friday.

Because they had voted twice in the prior 2 weeks.

I am not sure if it was a vote, but I had heard that they

unanimously supported me to...

The first time I heard that any member of this

investigative team had concerns about its legality was from my

lawyer this morning, who read...

I have no knowledge about any previous

investigations done by Mr. DeLia. All I knew, and know, is that

he had done work, this kind of work...

Congressman Markey, I only can offer hearsay

from Mr. Nye that he had complained to his manager, Mr.

Gentilucci, on previous occasions about...

I don't know. I think our investigation, when

we interrogated him, there may have been an answer to that. I

don't recall.

Congressman Markey, the only investigation that

HP has ever done with which I have any familiarity are the ones

known as Kona 1 and Kona...

I have no such knowledge.

No, sir, I don't.

I know nothing about HP's investigations outside

of Kona 1 and Kona 2, but I have testified that the methods used in

those two investigations...

Congressman Markey, I have asked my attorney,

Mr. Brosnahan, to communicate directly with Morgan Lewis, a

copy of which letter was sent...

Congressman, I'd like to point out that I'm no

longer on the Board of HP. I did not participate in the

deliberations--

The way these decisions are made are based upon

deliberation. I would want to hear the other views of the directors

if it were me still...

May 18th?

Yes.

No one did.

That is correct.

That is correct.

He did.

No. He related that it was due to what he

perceived to be a betrayal by me, that we had an agreement to

cover up the identity of the leaker...

He did not in the company's filing of the 8-K.

In the meeting he did not.

The company did, sir.

That's a statement by management to the SEC;

and it's the responsibility of the Legal Department, with the

approval of the CEO.

No, I did not, nor did any member of the Board.

We were provided copies of 8-Ks in the normal course of events

after they were filed.

Certainly not with respect to his opinion of me, but

Mr. Sonsini has much more insight as to how that filing was made

than I.

Yes, sir.