| 00:00:384 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Paul Greenberg, where did you get the title "No Surprises"? |
| 00:00:4231 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Throughout Bill Clinton's rise, it occurred to me that many people were surprised, and still are, at the different courses that our president takes.... |
| 00:01:133 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Where did you get your Pulitzer Prize? For what? |
| 00:01:1629 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I was writing for the Pine Bluff Commercial then. I was doing editorials on civil rights. The prize was awarded in 1969 for editorials written during... |
| 00:01:452 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How long did you live in Pine Bluff, Arkansas? |
| 00:01:475 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
For some 30 years, not counting one year away in Chicago with the old Daily News. |
| 00:01:522 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What got you there in the first place? |
| 00:01:5430 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I was looking for a job. I had just been told that Columbia University would no longer have need for me as a graduate student, since I had flunked my... |
| 00:02:241 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Where's home originally? |
| 00:02:254 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Shreveport, which is just a little further south from Pine Bluff. |
| 00:02:293 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Can you remember the very first time you ever met Bill Clinton? |
| 00:02:3221 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I don't think I can. I remember meeting him on various occasions, both in a political setting and just the kind of ordinary meetings you have in a small... |
| 00:02:535 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You write about a time when you were at a birthday party with him in one of these columns. Do you remember when that was? |
| 00:02:5855 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Definitely. That was around the time that Michael Dukakis was running for president, so it must have been in '88. And I was fascinated because Bill... |
| 00:03:532 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Was this, by the way, a private party? |
| 00:03:5511 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
This was a birthday party for an old friend in Pine Bluff, a fervid partisan and supporter of Governor Bill Clinton's, now President Clinton. |
| 00:04:063 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And what was your relationship with Bill Clinton then? What did he think of you then? |
| 00:04:0924 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I don't know what he thought of me. We had written numerous editorials, both critical and favorable, toward the governor. I have written my share of... |
| 00:04:331 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
But for hours, he talked about politics? |
| 00:04:349 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Every time I saw him at this party, he would be talking about politics to someone else, and he seemed to spend an excruciatingly long time with me. |
| 00:04:437 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
September 27th, 1980, best I can tell, from a column, `Slick Willie 'started. |
| 00:04:5011 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yes. I was much interested, when we put together this book, as to the origins of Slick Willie. I knew that we had coined it very early. |
| 00:05:011 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who's `we'? |
| 00:05:024 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I'm using the editorial we, for the Pine Bluff Commercial. I'm really talking about myself. |
| 00:05:062 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You coined Slick Willie. |
| 00:05:081 min. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Right, with the approbation of my publisher then, Ed Freeman. And I wasn't sure exactly when, and thanks to the good people at the Pine Bluff Public... |
| 00:06:463 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Can you remember when somebody nationally used that for the first time? |
| 00:06:4916 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think it began to arise in the 1992 campaign. I began to notice Slick Willie cropping up as Bill Clinton took various different positions in that... |
| 00:07:054 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Did they get that from your editorials? |
| 00:07:098 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I don't know what the origin is, but I'm confident about the original use of Slick Willie. |
| 00:07:175 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I counted tell me if I'm wrong 146 columns in this book. |
| 00:07:224 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
You know, I never counted them. I appreciate your giving me that information. |
| 00:07:266 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How did you figure out which 146 to choose, and what's the purpose of the book? |
| 00:07:3254 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I went through about 20 years of old editorials and columns, and I was particularly interested in those that would shed light on Bill Clinton as he... |
| 00:08:2644 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I found the same phrase on two different pages in two different time frames. I'm going to go to page 22, and this is July 29th, 1992. And you wrote... |
| 00:09:101 min. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think so, because there seems to be a hollowness at the core of both these politicians. There doesn't seem to be a consistency, a philosophy. Instead,... |
| 00:10:138 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When did you start calling him `Hollow Man' that's another title for another column and why? |
| 00:10:2118 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
That would have been early in the 1990s, and it became more and more evident to me as the '92 campaign got under way. That was a campaign in which Bill... |
| 00:10:396 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When did you start referring to the first lady, and why did you start referring to her, as `Miss Hillary'? |
| 00:10:4540 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Well, Miss Hillary, you know, is really a title of respect. You might have to come from our latitudes to understand that. But there are certain people,... |
| 00:11:252 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What do you think of her? |
| 00:11:271 min. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I have a great deal of empathy for Hillary Rodham Clinton. I remember vividly the first time I saw Hillary Clinton. I will never forget that. It was... |
| 00:13:022 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You're talking about down in Arkansas. |
| 00:13:041 min. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Down in Arkansas. And later, after Bill Clinton's defeat for re election as governor, she became simply Hillary Clinton, adopting her husband's name... |
| 00:14:104 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why did you leave Pine Bluff, and where did you go? |
| 00:14:1439 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
About four years, ago I was offered a job as editorial page editor of the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. That was the surviving newspaper of the newspaper... |
| 00:14:531 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Where did you go to college? |
| 00:14:5428 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Just about all over. I went to Centenary College of Louisiana in my hometown of Shreveport for a couple of years, a fine liberal arts school. And then... |
| 00:15:222 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What happened there? Why didn't you get it? |
| 00:15:2416 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
That question has often arisen in my dreams; not so often anymore. I do know that I had come quite a ways but was unable to pass the oral exams. Why... |
| 00:15:405 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What would have changed in your life had you been successful, do you think? |
| 00:15:4514 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
We're not given to look into our alternate futures. I would like to think that I would have enjoyed the study and teaching of history, but I can't really... |
| 00:15:592 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Whose idea was the book? |
| 00:16:0154 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
A man named Frank Margianas, the publisher at Brassey's. He called me one day and asked if I would like to do a book about Bill Clinton. And I said,... |
| 00:16:553 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Did anything that you found among the columns surprise you? |
| 00:16:581 min. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I knew that my doubts about Bill Clinton and about his tendency to trim the truth and to dissemble was very strong by the time 1992 and that presidential... |
| 00:18:575 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Define your own personal political views, the best you can. |
| 00:19:0243 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I'm kind of a non party liner conservative. I think if you put me in the conservative ranks, you would certainly have me in the right area. I believe... |
| 00:19:456 sec. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Now that's a good question, and it is one that I've asked myself. I don't think Bill Clinton is an anomaly. I think that he is very much a part of ourselves... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You twice write about a Danish camera crew that came to you at two different times. What was the point of that? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think the first time they came, the Danes were surprised at finding this editor of the home state newspaper who shook his head sadly about... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yes. I was I was editorial page editor then, and still am, of the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. And the Danes seemed suspicious and skeptical about this... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When it comes to Bill Clinton, you had praise for two editorial writers. One's a conservative and one's a liberal. One's with The New York Times, Howell... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I have been impressed by Howell Raines' willingness despite the fact that The New York Times certainly is a liberal organ in this country and agrees... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You signed some of your columns `Arky.' What's an Arky? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
An Arky is a breed of Arkansan that might be associated with the kind of people who found themselves poor and disinherited during the middle of the... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
If somebody were to be sitting at your desk over the last four, five years, ever since Bill Clinton became a contender in this country and then president,... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I get the widest range of reactions. I get the irate caller who thinks that my newspaper really ought to be more supportive of a president who, after... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Well, I guess I didn't ask it correctly. What about the national media? What are they calling you now and saying. You know, what are they asking you... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
`Is Bill Clinton going to straighten up in his second term?' I get that question. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What does that mean? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
That's a good question. I'm not sure what it means. I don't think that he is going to change from his waffling or his mastery of equivocation. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Has he ever changed? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think his course has been general and I think it is predictable, but I am surprised by the number of people who are not surprised by it, who continue... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
There's some personal stuff in here. Chapter 12 is about the author, A Wry Self Portrait. `Me, I like old books, old films, old typefaces, the smell... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think the reader of a book should have some knowledge of the author so that you know where the author is coming from, so that you can hear a person... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Are you married? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I was. I'm now a widower. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How long ago did that happen? The widower part? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
My wife, Caroline, died on June 15th of 1995. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
So not too long ago. How many children? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I have two kids, Daniel and Ruth. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And you say in here Dan Greenberg helped on this book. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yes, he did yeoman service. I cannot imagine this book taking shape without him, because all of these old clippings and editorials had just been thrown... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How old is he? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
He's 30 now. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What's he do? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
He works for the Arkansas Policy Foundation, a job he got after he came to Arkansas, briefly explored a race for Congress, and had come there from right... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And Ruth? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Ruth is with CIO, Chief Information Officer Magazine, in Boston, Massachusetts. She went up to Brandeis as a college student, fell in love with that... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When you have free time, what do you? How do you spend it? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I like to listen to music and I like to read books. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And is it Mozart and Telemann that are your favorites? Are they classical music? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yes, but I would also be lost without "Carmen" and especially Patsy Cline. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why Patsy Cline? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I guess it's the Shreveport boy in me coming up. It brings back memories of my youth and driving around Louisiana and east Texas and listening to Patsy... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What was Shreveport like? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
It was a great place to raise a family. It was a Southern city not too different from many Southern cities. Shreveport has a long and large element... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What did your parents do? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
My dad was in several businesses, but always at the same location. He started off selling second hand shoes and fixing them; went on into the pawn business... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And where do you think you got your conservative views? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I've held them for so long it's hard for me to say exactly where they came from. I think that I've always been interested in the past, which may explain... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I want to ask you about people, because you write about other Arkansans, or people from Arkansas, who we know from seeing them on C SPAN. You say somewhere... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think there is a consistency to Dale Bumpers' policy. I think I have always been particularly fond of Dale Bumpers when he loses patience with the... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You don't see much of him around. I mean, he doesn't do much television. You know, there was talk about him running for president one time. What happened... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think Senator Bumpers would be surprised to hear you say that, but I think that there is some truth to it. I think many of our politicians from Arkansas... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Well, you're drinking it. I don't know. You may not want to stay too long. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Perhaps if you could order me up some bottled water, from Arkansas? |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
The other senator who is retiring, Senator David Pryor, you also talk about him and a technique that you say he uses when someone disagrees with him. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yes. It's a very winning one, and I think David Pryor is one of the best mannered people I've ever met, if not the best mannered. He's a very winning... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What do you mean by `mannered'? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
He makes you feel as though you are the center of his attention, perhaps because you are. He treats everyone as a guest. He treats everyone as a human... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Betsey Wright. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
She's a scrapper, and I respect Betsey Wright. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who is she? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
She is a longtime aide to Governor Bill Clinton. She was his chief of staff for a time. She is great at rationalizing anything Bill Clinton will do.... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why, though? I mean, first question: Why wasn't she put in the White House? Why didn't she take a job or why didn't they even offer her to take a job... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I'm not privy to the president's inner counsels, but I suspect it's because she is hard to get along with, brisk, can be profane and doesn't have office... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why does she come back? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Basic loyalty, probably. She strikes me as a loyal person. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I don't know. Again, whether this is the right one or not, but I found January 10th, 1979, as the earliest column in this book. Would that make sense? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think that would be a good guess. I haven't gone through all of them; '79 would be close to the earliest. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And the title of this is Who's the Little Guy With Orval? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Is that a reference to Bill Clinton? |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I'm sure it must be. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yes. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Yeah. Well, of course, it is. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Yeah. The relationship between Bill Clinton and Orval Faubus was a fascinating one. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who's Orval Faubus? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
How far we have come that one has to ask, `Who is Orval Faubus?' I guess we have come in the right direction, because Orval Faubus was, at one, time... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
At what point did Orval Faubus move to Houston? What was the reason for that? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
That was after his leaving the governorship. He had married Elizabeth Westmoreland. Faubus had decided to start life anew in Houston. He told us he... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You have also commented in here that you've got I wrote it down `I've got a couple of steak dinners riding on the re election in 1996.' |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Those bets were made when Bill Clinton, according to the conventional wisdom, was sunk. They were made as the Republican gains in the mid term elections... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Will he be re elected? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I would predict that he will be. Yes. I've got a couple of steak dinners riding on it. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What does that say, then, from your perspective, about the American people, if you say he can just really only campaign? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think we're very much interested in the instant. I don't think we're terribly concerned at this point in our history about the past about history... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Is that unusual for this period? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think it's very usual for the 1990s. I think it would have been unusual at a different period. In fact, if you go back and read the artifacts of the... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Based on your title here, "No Surprises," Bill Clinton's re elected this is hypothetical in November. What kind of a president will be he be when there's... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
That would not surprise me in the least. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
It would not? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
It's very hard for me to imagine or to depict Bill Clinton as uninterested in a political race, particularly the next one to come up. I think that long... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You've been watching this man for how long now? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Back to at least 1978, or even 1976. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When he was attorney general? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Right. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What will the last four years of a two term presidency be like if he's re elected? And for both of them, what will they be like? What will their issues... |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
You know, I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I feel that we will drift, just as we have drifted, essentially, during these past three... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Where did you get the title of this chapter, Chapter 8? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Fornigate? |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Yes. |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
That came out in a conversation, I believe, with a columnist named Tony Snow, who was talking about these various personal scandals that have no interest... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You often bring up Lani Guinier in your columns. Why? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
I think that is the classic example of how Bill Clinton and much of the new class that we might identify with Bill Clinton acts in terms of commitment... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Do you know where this picture came from on the cover of the book? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
No. That's my publisher's doing. It's a very informal shot of Bill and Hillary Clinton, probably right after a joking moment. |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And who is your publisher, Brassey? |
| 00:19:51 |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
Brassey's is the American wing of an old English publisher. It specializes in a number of political books and books about history. It's right here in... |
| 00:19:51 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Here's what the cover of the book looks like, 146 columns of Paul Greenberg's, back to 1979 up to the present. We thank you very much for joining us. |
| 00:19:5138 min. |
Greenberg, Paul - Editor
It's always a pleasure to have a civilized conversation with you, Mr. Lamb. |