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00:00:384 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Paul Greenberg, where did you get the title "No Surprises"?

00:00:4231 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Throughout Bill Clinton's rise, it occurred to me that many people were surprised, and still are, at the different courses that our president takes....

00:01:133 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where did you get your Pulitzer Prize? For what?

00:01:1629 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I was writing for the Pine Bluff Commercial then. I was doing editorials on civil rights. The prize was awarded in 1969 for editorials written during...

00:01:452 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How long did you live in Pine Bluff, Arkansas?

00:01:475 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

For some 30 years, not counting one year away in Chicago with the old Daily News.

00:01:522 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What got you there in the first place?

00:01:5430 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I was looking for a job. I had just been told that Columbia University would no longer have need for me as a graduate student, since I had flunked my...

00:02:241 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where's home originally?

00:02:254 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Shreveport, which is just a little further south from Pine Bluff.

00:02:293 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Can you remember the very first time you ever met Bill Clinton?

00:02:3221 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I don't think I can. I remember meeting him on various occasions, both in a political setting and just the kind of ordinary meetings you have in a small...

00:02:535 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You write about a time when you were at a birthday party with him in one of these columns. Do you remember when that was?

00:02:5855 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Definitely. That was around the time that Michael Dukakis was running for president, so it must have been in '88. And I was fascinated because Bill...

00:03:532 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Was this, by the way, a private party?

00:03:5511 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

This was a birthday party for an old friend in Pine Bluff, a fervid partisan and supporter of Governor Bill Clinton's, now President Clinton.

00:04:063 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

And what was your relationship with Bill Clinton then? What did he think of you then?

00:04:0924 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I don't know what he thought of me. We had written numerous editorials, both critical and favorable, toward the governor. I have written my share of...

00:04:331 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

But for hours, he talked about politics?

00:04:349 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Every time I saw him at this party, he would be talking about politics to someone else, and he seemed to spend an excruciatingly long time with me.

00:04:437 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

September 27th, 1980, best I can tell, from a column, `Slick Willie 'started.

00:04:5011 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yes. I was much interested, when we put together this book, as to the origins of Slick Willie. I knew that we had coined it very early.

00:05:011 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Who's `we'?

00:05:024 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I'm using the editorial we, for the Pine Bluff Commercial. I'm really talking about myself.

00:05:062 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You coined Slick Willie.

00:05:081 min.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Right, with the approbation of my publisher then, Ed Freeman. And I wasn't sure exactly when, and thanks to the good people at the Pine Bluff Public...

00:06:463 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Can you remember when somebody nationally used that for the first time?

00:06:4916 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think it began to arise in the 1992 campaign. I began to notice Slick Willie cropping up as Bill Clinton took various different positions in that...

00:07:054 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Did they get that from your editorials?

00:07:098 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I don't know what the origin is, but I'm confident about the original use of Slick Willie.

00:07:175 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I counted tell me if I'm wrong 146 columns in this book.

00:07:224 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

You know, I never counted them. I appreciate your giving me that information.

00:07:266 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

How did you figure out which 146 to choose, and what's the purpose of the book?

00:07:3254 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I went through about 20 years of old editorials and columns, and I was particularly interested in those that would shed light on Bill Clinton as he...

00:08:2644 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

I found the same phrase on two different pages in two different time frames. I'm going to go to page 22, and this is July 29th, 1992. And you wrote...

00:09:101 min.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think so, because there seems to be a hollowness at the core of both these politicians. There doesn't seem to be a consistency, a philosophy. Instead,...

00:10:138 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

When did you start calling him `Hollow Man' that's another title for another column and why?

00:10:2118 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

That would have been early in the 1990s, and it became more and more evident to me as the '92 campaign got under way. That was a campaign in which Bill...

00:10:396 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

When did you start referring to the first lady, and why did you start referring to her, as `Miss Hillary'?

00:10:4540 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Well, Miss Hillary, you know, is really a title of respect. You might have to come from our latitudes to understand that. But there are certain people,...

00:11:252 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What do you think of her?

00:11:271 min.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I have a great deal of empathy for Hillary Rodham Clinton. I remember vividly the first time I saw Hillary Clinton. I will never forget that. It was...

00:13:022 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

You're talking about down in Arkansas.

00:13:041 min.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Down in Arkansas. And later, after Bill Clinton's defeat for re election as governor, she became simply Hillary Clinton, adopting her husband's name...

00:14:104 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why did you leave Pine Bluff, and where did you go?

00:14:1439 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

About four years, ago I was offered a job as editorial page editor of the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. That was the surviving newspaper of the newspaper...

00:14:531 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where did you go to college?

00:14:5428 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Just about all over. I went to Centenary College of Louisiana in my hometown of Shreveport for a couple of years, a fine liberal arts school. And then...

00:15:222 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What happened there? Why didn't you get it?

00:15:2416 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

That question has often arisen in my dreams; not so often anymore. I do know that I had come quite a ways but was unable to pass the oral exams. Why...

00:15:405 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

What would have changed in your life had you been successful, do you think?

00:15:4514 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

We're not given to look into our alternate futures. I would like to think that I would have enjoyed the study and teaching of history, but I can't really...

00:15:592 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Whose idea was the book?

00:16:0154 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

A man named Frank Margianas, the publisher at Brassey's. He called me one day and asked if I would like to do a book about Bill Clinton. And I said,...

00:16:553 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Did anything that you found among the columns surprise you?

00:16:581 min.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I knew that my doubts about Bill Clinton and about his tendency to trim the truth and to dissemble was very strong by the time 1992 and that presidential...

00:18:575 sec.
Lamb, Brian - Host

Define your own personal political views, the best you can.

00:19:0243 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I'm kind of a non party liner conservative. I think if you put me in the conservative ranks, you would certainly have me in the right area. I believe...

00:19:456 sec.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Now that's a good question, and it is one that I've asked myself. I don't think Bill Clinton is an anomaly. I think that he is very much a part of ourselves...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You twice write about a Danish camera crew that came to you at two different times. What was the point of that?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think the first time they came, the Danes were surprised at finding this editor of the home state newspaper who shook his head sadly about...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yes. I was I was editorial page editor then, and still am, of the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. And the Danes seemed suspicious and skeptical about this...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

When it comes to Bill Clinton, you had praise for two editorial writers. One's a conservative and one's a liberal. One's with The New York Times, Howell...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I have been impressed by Howell Raines' willingness despite the fact that The New York Times certainly is a liberal organ in this country and agrees...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You signed some of your columns `Arky.' What's an Arky?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

An Arky is a breed of Arkansan that might be associated with the kind of people who found themselves poor and disinherited during the middle of the...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

If somebody were to be sitting at your desk over the last four, five years, ever since Bill Clinton became a contender in this country and then president,...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I get the widest range of reactions. I get the irate caller who thinks that my newspaper really ought to be more supportive of a president who, after...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Well, I guess I didn't ask it correctly. What about the national media? What are they calling you now and saying. You know, what are they asking you...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

`Is Bill Clinton going to straighten up in his second term?' I get that question.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What does that mean?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

That's a good question. I'm not sure what it means. I don't think that he is going to change from his waffling or his mastery of equivocation.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Has he ever changed?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think his course has been general and I think it is predictable, but I am surprised by the number of people who are not surprised by it, who continue...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

There's some personal stuff in here. Chapter 12 is about the author, A Wry Self Portrait. `Me, I like old books, old films, old typefaces, the smell...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think the reader of a book should have some knowledge of the author so that you know where the author is coming from, so that you can hear a person...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Are you married?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I was. I'm now a widower.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

How long ago did that happen? The widower part?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

My wife, Caroline, died on June 15th of 1995.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

So not too long ago. How many children?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I have two kids, Daniel and Ruth.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

And you say in here Dan Greenberg helped on this book.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yes, he did yeoman service. I cannot imagine this book taking shape without him, because all of these old clippings and editorials had just been thrown...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

How old is he?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

He's 30 now.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What's he do?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

He works for the Arkansas Policy Foundation, a job he got after he came to Arkansas, briefly explored a race for Congress, and had come there from right...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

And Ruth?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Ruth is with CIO, Chief Information Officer Magazine, in Boston, Massachusetts. She went up to Brandeis as a college student, fell in love with that...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

When you have free time, what do you? How do you spend it?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I like to listen to music and I like to read books.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

And is it Mozart and Telemann that are your favorites? Are they classical music?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yes, but I would also be lost without "Carmen" and especially Patsy Cline.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why Patsy Cline?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I guess it's the Shreveport boy in me coming up. It brings back memories of my youth and driving around Louisiana and east Texas and listening to Patsy...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What was Shreveport like?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

It was a great place to raise a family. It was a Southern city not too different from many Southern cities. Shreveport has a long and large element...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What did your parents do?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

My dad was in several businesses, but always at the same location. He started off selling second hand shoes and fixing them; went on into the pawn business...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

And where do you think you got your conservative views?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I've held them for so long it's hard for me to say exactly where they came from. I think that I've always been interested in the past, which may explain...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

I want to ask you about people, because you write about other Arkansans, or people from Arkansas, who we know from seeing them on C SPAN. You say somewhere...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think there is a consistency to Dale Bumpers' policy. I think I have always been particularly fond of Dale Bumpers when he loses patience with the...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You don't see much of him around. I mean, he doesn't do much television. You know, there was talk about him running for president one time. What happened...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think Senator Bumpers would be surprised to hear you say that, but I think that there is some truth to it. I think many of our politicians from Arkansas...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Well, you're drinking it. I don't know. You may not want to stay too long.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Perhaps if you could order me up some bottled water, from Arkansas?

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

The other senator who is retiring, Senator David Pryor, you also talk about him and a technique that you say he uses when someone disagrees with him.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yes. It's a very winning one, and I think David Pryor is one of the best mannered people I've ever met, if not the best mannered. He's a very winning...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What do you mean by `mannered'?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

He makes you feel as though you are the center of his attention, perhaps because you are. He treats everyone as a guest. He treats everyone as a human...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Betsey Wright.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

She's a scrapper, and I respect Betsey Wright.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Who is she?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

She is a longtime aide to Governor Bill Clinton. She was his chief of staff for a time. She is great at rationalizing anything Bill Clinton will do....

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why, though? I mean, first question: Why wasn't she put in the White House? Why didn't she take a job or why didn't they even offer her to take a job...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I'm not privy to the president's inner counsels, but I suspect it's because she is hard to get along with, brisk, can be profane and doesn't have office...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Why does she come back?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Basic loyalty, probably. She strikes me as a loyal person.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

I don't know. Again, whether this is the right one or not, but I found January 10th, 1979, as the earliest column in this book. Would that make sense?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think that would be a good guess. I haven't gone through all of them; '79 would be close to the earliest.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

And the title of this is Who's the Little Guy With Orval?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Is that a reference to Bill Clinton?

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

I'm sure it must be.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yes.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Yeah. Well, of course, it is.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Yeah. The relationship between Bill Clinton and Orval Faubus was a fascinating one.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Who's Orval Faubus?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

How far we have come that one has to ask, `Who is Orval Faubus?' I guess we have come in the right direction, because Orval Faubus was, at one, time...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

At what point did Orval Faubus move to Houston? What was the reason for that?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

That was after his leaving the governorship. He had married Elizabeth Westmoreland. Faubus had decided to start life anew in Houston. He told us he...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You have also commented in here that you've got I wrote it down `I've got a couple of steak dinners riding on the re election in 1996.'

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Those bets were made when Bill Clinton, according to the conventional wisdom, was sunk. They were made as the Republican gains in the mid term elections...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Will he be re elected?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I would predict that he will be. Yes. I've got a couple of steak dinners riding on it.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What does that say, then, from your perspective, about the American people, if you say he can just really only campaign?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think we're very much interested in the instant. I don't think we're terribly concerned at this point in our history about the past about history...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Is that unusual for this period?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think it's very usual for the 1990s. I think it would have been unusual at a different period. In fact, if you go back and read the artifacts of the...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Based on your title here, "No Surprises," Bill Clinton's re elected this is hypothetical in November. What kind of a president will be he be when there's...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

That would not surprise me in the least.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

It would not?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

It's very hard for me to imagine or to depict Bill Clinton as uninterested in a political race, particularly the next one to come up. I think that long...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You've been watching this man for how long now?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Back to at least 1978, or even 1976.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

When he was attorney general?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Right.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

What will the last four years of a two term presidency be like if he's re elected? And for both of them, what will they be like? What will their issues...

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

You know, I am not a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I feel that we will drift, just as we have drifted, essentially, during these past three...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Where did you get the title of this chapter, Chapter 8?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Fornigate?

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Yes.

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

That came out in a conversation, I believe, with a columnist named Tony Snow, who was talking about these various personal scandals that have no interest...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

You often bring up Lani Guinier in your columns. Why?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

I think that is the classic example of how Bill Clinton and much of the new class that we might identify with Bill Clinton acts in terms of commitment...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Do you know where this picture came from on the cover of the book?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

No. That's my publisher's doing. It's a very informal shot of Bill and Hillary Clinton, probably right after a joking moment.

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

And who is your publisher, Brassey?

00:19:51
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

Brassey's is the American wing of an old English publisher. It specializes in a number of political books and books about history. It's right here in...

00:19:51
Lamb, Brian - Host

Here's what the cover of the book looks like, 146 columns of Paul Greenberg's, back to 1979 up to the present. We thank you very much for joining us.

00:19:5138 min.
Greenberg, Paul - Editor

It's always a pleasure to have a civilized conversation with you, Mr. Lamb.

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