John F. Marszalek, what is "The Petticoat Affair" all about?

Well, it turned out that Andrew Jackson becomes president of the United States in 1828, and his best friend, John Henry Eaton, one of his best friends,...

Well, it--I--it's a--it's kind of a long story, but--I won't give you the whole story, but when I was a--a senior in college at Canisius College...

In Buffalo, right.

Buffalo, New York, right. And we had a senior seminar--or a senior writing course, and I just got interested from doing some reading about this. And...

Yes--yes and no. N--I would've done this book anyway because I wanted to do it. But I--I have to tell you that the thing that really struck me and got...

No, this is not. This is the imagination of a novelist about the turn of this century, about 1900, who wrote a novel about this incident. And this is...

Well, this--when she was married--she was born in 1799, she was married in 1829, so she was about--in her late 20s, I would say.

This would be probably in the 1850s. We don't know for sure, but this is--this is probably when she's in her--in her la--late 40s, late 1840s, early...

This is an actual photograph, yes. This was--we don't know, again, exactly when it was taken. She died in 1879, so I'm guessing it's probably in the...

Right.

Great.

Well, she marries when she's 59 years old and she marries a 20-year-old. A--I mean, it's a--it's a--it's unbelievable. It's a--she marries an Italian...

Right. Right.

Well, as you might suspect, it was not good. The--the--the attitude was, `Well, here, she's--she's done it again. Here--you know, Margaret Eaton continues...

Andrew Jackson. Right. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Oh...

Oh, we just--it--it--it's--one--one can't even imagine it. The thing that strikes me, and I think it struck other people who've read this book, that...

Right. Well, what happened was when he ran for the presidency for the first time in 1824, he won the popular vote, but no one received a majority of...

And so when he goes to The Hermitage and he--and he goes for the first time after going to Washington, leaving his buried wife in--in Tennessee, and...

Well, he was born in 1767, so doing some quick math--I hadn't thought about this for a while--he's--33 and 28 would be--What?--about 61? So about 61...

She is about the same age. I don't remember the exact birth date, but it's in that same--same neighb--not much difference in their ages.

Oh, gosh, goes back into the 1790s. But again, the problem is that they were married and then the di--the "non-divorce" was discovered, and then they...

Oh, it was very old, yeah. It goes back into the 1790s. Exactly.

I don't think it had much impact because Jackson was--was elected rather--rather signif--with a significant vote. But it--it--it brought the election...

Well, he was president from 1828 to 1836, so he served two terms.

Well, actually, it starts as soon as he becomes president and it more or less ends in 1831, when the Cabinet is--is--is fired or they resign, of course,...

Right.

All right. It was--was the secretary of state, the secretary of the Treasury, the attorney general. The postmaster general stayed on because he was...

Navy secretary, too, yes. The Navy secretary.

Yeah, it really was because the Navy secretary and war secretary were--were equal--equal members of the Cabinet.

President.

Right. Right. Right.

Martin Van Buren--Martin Van Buren, who is going to then become, in the 1832 election, a vice presidential candidate with Jackson because, as a result...

Yes, all through the book. Right. Yes. Exactly. They both wanna be--they both wanna be president.

Well, it was--it was a--a real detective story, I think, in some ways because the m--there is no one body of documents. You know, there--for example,...

Yes. Yes. How true. Yeah, she's--my wife is not a historian, but she is an integral partner in my research. She travels with me and she keeps me straight....

We live in Mississippi. I teach at Mississippi State University, and we live in Starkville, Mississippi.

It'll be 25 years this year. Came in 1973.

Buffalo--Buffalo--Buffalo, New York. Went to Canisius for undergraduate and then went to Notre Dame for my graduate work, spent a couple years in the...

Well, my PhD was actually had--dealt with General Sherman--General Sherman's relationship with newspaper reporters. They thought he was crazy and he...

This is--this is about the eighth or ninth book that I've--that I've done.

Oh, Kumpi and Alley, yes.

Yes.

Yes. Well, what happened was my--my son and daughter-in-law live in Memphis, Tennessee, about three hours from us, and they were coming--he was coming...

That's a combination of--I--I--I came up with that idea and my--and my editor at the Free Press, Bruce Nichols, came up with the idea, and then we worked...

At first, it was a little bit--little bit difficult. My--my original editor, Joyce Sellsor, moved to another publisher, and we talked about it 'cause...

The O'Neill boarding house is roughly--well, i--it's hard to pin down. Let me--let me--let me just back up a little bit. It's--it's roughly in the area...

Yeah, it's not far. Very close to the White House, yeah.

Well, the O'Neills, William O'Neill and his wife, were both immigrants, came to this country through New Jersey basically, came and began the boarding...

Yeah, it was in the 1790s, about 1794, '96. It's--it--again, hard to--because they had property here and then they--he brought the house here, and so...

Right.

There were four children--four children, two--two boys and another girl. And the two boys, interestingly enough, were both West Point students, never...

One of the wonderful things that happened was a historian back in the 19th century named James Parton wrote a famous book on Andrew Jackson, which is...

Oh, there--the--pr--probably the most famous person to stay there was George Clinton, who was vice president of the United States. In fact, he died...

It varied. At--at--it--at one time it got up to 40 rooms, and at--at other times it was as few as four or five. What happened was they started small,...

Yeah, what--what--what struck wa--was, again, in several places, she was just there. She was at the boarding house. And she had an interest in politics....

Oh, no.

No. Hmm-mm. No.

Well, Washington was a--was a very, very small place, as you can imagine, about 6,000, 8,000 people. When--we're talking about when--at the early time,...

Yes, very attractive, and that's what happened. She goes from being a cute little girl that would sit on their laps when--when they would, you know,...

No, they don't stay there. These are people she met who knows--who knows how. Maybe they--they came by--1814--there was--that was another thing, there...

Well, he actually was here in the 1790s briefly. He was the first senator from Tennessee, actually, and then, of course, he goes on and does other things....

Right.

Right.

Yes. By that time, she is married. She marries a man named Timberlake, John B. Timberlake, who is a purser in the Navy, and Timberlake's not a good...

From Tennessee. The...

Right. Right. Eaton has already been--he's been a senator for, I think, one term up to that point. And he'd already lived there. Be--so he brought Jackson...

He's--he is a young man, too. He is--let me see. I'd have to st--I'd have to think. He is in his 30s, early 30s. So there's not much difference.

Eaton.

Right.

Right.

Right. Right.

And what happens is Washington society is abuzz about the fact that they see John Henry Eaton and Mrs. Timberlake going off to parties together and...

Yes.

Yes. Right. Right.

Right.

Yes. What happens then is Eaton and Margaret marry on January 1st, 1829, which opens up another can of worms because she's violating one of the basic...

No. That's the--it--it was and it wasn't. It was a public issue in that people talked about it a great deal. And people talked about it--for example,...

Family, right.

Andrew Jackson Donelson, who is like a son to him--he helped raise him--and Andrew Jackson Donelson's wife, Emily, who is going to be the official White...

To Rachel, he--he is a--would be a nephew--one of her brother's sons.

Right. Right. Right.

They were very young. Now she is about 20 or 21. She's a very, very young woman, Emily is. He is a bit older. He's in his later 20s.

Oh, well, that's an interesting thing because when they come, they have social relations with the Eatons. You know, they--they ta--they visit each other,...

What's the story of the calling cards?

I mean, would you literally just show up unannounced at somebody's house?

But they may not be home, though.

But on those certain days you're not there and the car--you leave the card...

...so you th--I mean, the idea is that if you're not there and you leave the card, then you're expected to return the visit.

I mean, it seems that that's--that was where it all kind of blew up, is that people weren't returning the visits.

What is this cartoon?

And then you see--and--and--Jackson's still holding William Barry, the one--the one member of the Cabinet who he allows to stay. And, by the way, he...

Oh, it--it was--it was--it was very, very blatant. For example, the--the--the most obvious example, if he didn't know it--and he knew it before this...

I--I'm just reading in that particular part of your book where you--you say that Ely cautioned him against traveling on the Sabbath. I--I--just pops...

So in any case, what happens--what happens is that Ely is one of those people who believes that in order to have a Christian nation, in order to have...

There's a bunch of things in here--and you write--it says, `Ely next presented a catalog of Margaret Eaton's alleged sins at the National Hotel'--that's...

Do you know where that is, by the way, that...

`...where Jackson himself had stayed. A man told four others, Ely reported, that, quote, "Mrs. Eaton brushed by me last night and pretended not to know...

And then you go on to say, `Eaton's seduction of his wife--a Washington clergyman told Eaton that Margaret had undergone a miscarriage at a time when...

What does he do about that?

Now when Andrew Jackson's sitting in the White House, I know you wrote early--you write early in this book that he had two bullets in him.

In his body?

Where'd he get them?

Another bullet he--he got from Thomas Hart Benton and the Benton brothers in a--in a--in a big debate--"debate," to put in mildly. Anyway, it was a--he...

I think that there are--there are several--several reasons. I think the--the major reason is all his life he has had this relationship with women where...

What did he stand for?

What did nullification mean?

Did he have slaves?

And was--what would he be today?

What were some of the other things he was involved in militarily?

You--you were mentioning earlier about him being sick. I--I--I just think it might be worth reading how sick you said he was.

You kind of lump it altogether on page 102. `Jackson's methodical presentation of his evidence quickly demonstrated to the assembled group that their...

...of the Cabinet.

Before I read how sick he was, though, what was that meeting?

The wives have been all snubbing her all along?

Now you had Martin Van Buren, a vice--he's a st--secretary of state.

And...

From New York.

OK. And--and John C. Calhan's--Calhoun's not in the meeting.

He's still in South Carolina.

You got Sam--Samuel Ingham.

Treasurer.

Treasury secretary.

Who is he, by the way?

But John Ingham's wife isn't buying off on--on Margaret.

John Berrien.

Attorney general.

John Branch, secretary of the Navy.

John McLean.

He went to the Supreme Court.

William Barry was your postmaster.

So their--is John Eaton in this room, by the way?

His wife's the subject.

But here's what you--what happened in that meeting, by the way? What was the...

The wives refused to meet her.

1829-1830 is the time period on this. What's going on in the country?

A big issue that's going on at the same time as this is going on is the rotation in office, the idea of the new president bringing in his own people...

Kelamel--kela--kelamel.

Kelamel.

That's what--that's a good question.

Oh, yeah. This is--fortunately, I was very lucky because some doctor many, many years ago, actually, wrote an article in a--in a medical journal where...

Yes. Right.

Well, fits--it comes in as a result of this Eaton affair, too. Remember, I mentioned that John Timberlake, the Navy purser, was just not a very good...

Right, Margaret's first husband. And--and--and his books weren't in particularly good shape when he--when he commits suicide. So this man Randolph takes...

Oh, he was--he was knocked down and--and kicked off, and that--that was about it. And Jackson said, `Forget it. Forget it.'

Well, that was--that was done very cleverly. Some people say this was V--Martin Van Buren's finest hour. Van Buren said, `Look, Andrew Jackson, things...

They can't believe it. They're--they're--they're shocked, they're--they're--they're titillated. But it really has no impact on Jackson's popularity...

He--he--he brings in a whole new Cabinet, just hires new people.

Yeah, people like Roger Brooke Taney comes into that Cabinet, who later on becomes, you know, a famous Supreme Court--Supreme Court justice. So the...

Well, Jackson still wants to have Eaton near him. They're--they're--he still sees him as a close friend. So what he'd like to have happen is--he tells...

That's when she--yeah, although, actually, it's about five years--five, six years after the--the--Eaton died, but then she ends up, right, marrying...

This is Duff Green.

He is one of the newspaper--one of the newspaper men of this period. One of the things that's so intriguing about this Eaton affair, too, is to see...

Well, that--that's--other historians have debated this, and some said, `Yes, it was an--important,' some said, `It was not important.' I think that...

Yes. Yeah, I--I--I think--again, I think all the--the s--the sexual stuff is not the--is not the key thing. I think the key thing is that--that she...

Any lessons for people today on what today would look like a couple hundred years from now?

John Marszalek is our guest, and here's what the book looks like. The title of it is "The Petticoat Affair," and right below that's the subhead "Manners,...