Well, we decided to do the book because the racial gap is, it seems to us, the domestic problem. Education continues, of course, in the eyes of most...

The gap is appalling. At the end of high school, the typical African-American or Latino student is about four years behind -- depends on the subject...

I could go on with numbers. I mean, look, the majority of black students -- NAPE has got seven tests. On five of them, majority of black students fall...

You have some statistics in your book: 37 percent of black children live with two parents, 77 percent of white students live with two parents...

... 65 percent of Hispanics live with two parents, and 81 percent of Asians live with two parents. How much does that have to do with it?

But nevertheless, all of these factors do have something to do with academic achievement, but they explain only about a third of the gap, so that you`re...

Yes. A teacher.

Rafe Esquith.

In Los Angeles.

Well, he, in effect, runs a one-room schoolhouse in a -- though the principal of the school would not like it to be described as such -- in a very large...

And after school, this school has almost no sports. He`s got -- he`s got phys ed for his kids, but he also has something called the Hobart Shakespeareans....

And I had called my husband, Stephan, who is my co-author on this book. I had called him after I first saw the kids reading "Lear." I had called him...

He`s there working with his kids on Saturday morning. His kids come to his house on Saturdays, and they work on the music for it. Everybody -- everybody...

I just got a Christmas card from one of the children he has. Every child in his class writes a Christmas card to somebody who has been to the class...

You get -- the school assigns you, but there are a lot of kids who have joined the Shakespeare production in 4th grade and really campaign to get in...

Hobart Elementary School.

In central Los Angeles. It`s really Koreatown.

Rafe has got to be mid-40s now.

Since college. Well, no, he`s been teaching since college. He`s -- well, he`s been doing this, though, for -- well, he started out in an affluent school,...

Well, he keeps track of them. He has SAT preparation. And by the way, he does a lot of testing preparation in the classroom. And he has the kids get...

Various benefactors who are enamored with his class. He`s -- I mean, he`s very good at advertising his -- what he`s doing, and that`s a special skill...

No. No.

No, he makes less than other teachers because -- well, for a number of reasons. One, he`s refused to get these Mickey-Mouse, meaningless degrees that...

Let me ask you -- it might sound like an odd question. If Mary Frances Berry read this book...

I say, If she read it.

Yes. You two have tangled, Civil Rights Commission, she`s the chairman, you`re a member. How long have you been a member of the Civil Rights Commission?

And what is it, by the way? What does it do?

And the reason I asked the question that way, Mary Frances Berry, the chairman, is an African-American. And I just -- from your experience and knowing...

If you were to put your finger on the one -- I know there`s more than one -- the one thing, the biggest thing that has caused difficulty for -- in this...

Why is there a disconnect?

That is true today. I mean, equal skills and knowledge -- not equal years spending -- warming a seat in a classroom, but actual skills and knowledge,...

I don`t. I live in Lexington.

My husband teaches at Harvard.

Yes, you read it right.

I don`t know if it`s actually the highest, but it`s up there.

Oh, it`s got a substantial black population. I can`t -- and a substantial Hispanic population. I can`t remember precisely the numbers at the moment,...

Oh, moral pedestal -- Cambridge thinks that it`s full of progressive ideas about education and progressive ideas about equality. And in fact, it`s not...

Well, we do have a quotation in the book from the superintendent, saying, yes, I know we got to do something about it. But the fact is, they aren`t...

Knowledge Is Power Program.

I think they`re up to 32 this year, but I -- that could be slightly high. In any case, they`ve got -- I think that`s right. They`ve got a big replication...

It was just called KIPP Academy because, you see, the first two schools were the only KIPPs, so it was KIPP New York and KIPP Houston. This was -- the...

Let me see, about three years ago now. Something like that.

It`s the Fisher Foundation, which is Gap money, and...

The clothes you wear. Or some people wear, anyway. Maybe you don`t.

Yes. They`ve got -- you know, they hired a staff, and Mike Feinberg actually -- it`s run out of San Francisco -- has just left there and gone back to...

And so they started a school in Houston. And after a year, Dave went to New York and started the school only on one floor of a school that has three...

Is this a public school, by the way?

I mean, I was with him for a day. He was up in Massachusetts. I was with him for a day, which I really wanted to talk to him, and he spent the day arguing...

They are public schools. They`re often -- people refer to public schools and then charter schools. No. Charter schools are public schools. But they...

So the accountability is attached to freedom. Yes, you have the freedom. You`re out from under the collective bargaining agreements -- very, very important.

No.

That`s correct.

No.

Well, I mean, that`s part of the charter school that these schools are free to be non-union. I mean, can it -- no, the unions wouldn`t try because these...

They are -- the charter schools in general, by the way, have smaller budgets, although they can supplement them by fund-raising. But they have smaller...

Now, they do get extra pay for the long hours, for instance, that the KIPP teachers spend, and that money has to be raised.

Too much variety in the quality of the charter schools. In some states, you`ve got -- I mean -- Arizona has got more charter schools than I can count....

Well, you can try to go to one. But, I mean, all these charter schools have huge waiting lists.

Random selection.

Put your ...

Yeah, lottery.

No. And in fact, the charters -- all the charter schools that we talk about in the book are -- well, Ray`s class has got some -- obviously got Korean...

Culture matters. That is the toughest message we`ve got in the book. And it`s the message we thought that people were going to have a hard time swallowing....

And that`s a very important question, because we hesitated, Steve and I, about using the word culture, because it`s got baggage. It has the implication...

Asian culture by and large -- we`re talking about averages here. But what`s interesting is that of course when we use the umbrella word Asian, you`re...

Don`t do as well. But by and large, just looking at averages, Asians do do spectacularly well in school, much better than whites in some respects. And...

It matters.

That matters. But it unfortunately -- I mean, there is very good statistical work on this. It explains about a third of the gap -- well, all the demographic...

Yes.

No, actually you have -- unless my memory doesn`t serve me correctly, the whites and Asians mysteriously don`t look that much different, and the black...

It`s what they need to do to be socially acceptable to their peers, to be part of the group. Every teenager, every kid wants to be accepted by his or...

That has something to do with it, but it also has to do obviously with -- well, it does have something to do with it. But I was going to say it also...

But look, the extraordinary thing about Asians is not simply that their parents deliver the message, but that they listen to their parents. And we have...

Here in Washington.

I think inner city blacks are much more depressed about -- and that`s important, about what the possibilities are for them and their kids, and it is...

Yes, and there are murmurings of that sort, and you left out the California system, Asians are 4 percent of the American population, they`re 10 percent...

Right. I was just going to say, don`t mix that up.

He read it, and he said, by God, you`ve got a good book here. And, you know, we`re extremely grateful to him. He`s intellectually willing to read books,...

It`s happened less with this book than with "American Black and White," and I can`t quite figure out why. And indeed our agents say, more controversy,...

Well, the schools we describe are often called no-excuses schools. And that predated the title of this book. But we have a larger meaning to it. We...

How long have you and Stephan Thernstrom been married?

Where did you meet?

Studying what?

Where?

Where is he from? Meaning your husband, Stephan?

Have you had children?

How old are they today?

What kind of schools did they go to?

Have you ever taught?

For how long?

Take this book and what you`ve learned in all your studies and put yourself in the District of Columbia, where I think they spend as much as $15,000...

Let`s say no vouchers yet and you want to do something right now?

Any child that`s not reading by third grade, bells of alarm should go off in a parent`s head as well as teachers, instead of oh, well, he or she will...

Yeah. Though I would say there is -- I mean, KIPP schools, remember, are middle schools, and there are some high schools that are turning kids` lives...

What if you`re not a reader? What if you just have an instinct, I want my kid to be the best and have the best education, and you`re just -- you know,...

What would you do with your child when it comes to the social homework that`s so important? I mean, you go so far in here as to talk about not allowing...

My kids watched very little television, because they had these terrible parents. They were allowed to watch on Saturday mornings, but by the time they...

Were your parents educated?

How many degrees?

Were there books in your both of your families?

Steve was thrilled when we wrote an article for "Reader`s Digest," because it had been his father`s education. And -- but Steve was a total delinquent...

I`m not undergraduate.

Ph.D.`s, yes.

Yes.

I don`t know all the problems of an inner city school, but I am an American. I`m part of the society. I`ve had a -- I`ve been writing on issues of race...

Well, I just said some. The flak we`ve gotten, interestingly enough, has been less from the left than -- well, there is -- look, there are a lot of...

Quotient.

No. And I don`t know what his is either.

I don`t know, but there`s a certain amount of -- a certain amount of I.Q. testing and social affairs, you know...

... there`s literature. That`s a very good question that I don`t know the answer to. I`ve asked it with the schools that we`ve looked at, have looked...

Yes, I am. I am glad because I -- because race remains, as I said at the very beginning of this interview, it remains the American dilemma. You know,...

The personal is the political for her.

She can`t separate the two. She can`t separate the two. I really believe that I can totally. I have all sorts of friends whom I really disagree with...

Thank you for having me, Brian.