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00:00:471 min.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

The hearing will come to order.

While we are waiting for the nominee, and he has just been told

to come in, I want to share with the press...

00:02:286 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Judge Breyer, we are back with you again.

TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN G. BREYER, TO BE AN ASSOCIATE

JUSTICE OF THE...

00:02:342 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes, Senator.

00:02:3641 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Judge, in the recent Weiss v. United States

decision, the Supreme Court stated:

In determining what process is due, courts must give particular...

00:03:1727 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

In the law, the military has always had a somewhat

special role, because courts have recognized the importance

of its running its own affairs,...

00:03:4420 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Judge Breyer, as a general matter, if two

companies believe it is in the best interest of their business to combine

their organizations...

00:04:0425 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Senator, the good reason is typically—or not always,

but quite often—a question of whether the antitrust law is

violated, because the antitrust...

00:04:2958 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Judge Breyer, as you may know, the Supreme

Court held in 1922 that professional baseball was not in

interstate commerce, and therefore was...

00:05:2720 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Senator, if I can depart directly, from a nonlegal

point of view, I have always thought that baseball was special, ever

since my grandfather...

00:05:47
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

NOW you pay about $20.

00:05:4724 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Well, they pay more, yes, that is

true—from a legal point of view, from a legal point of view, I know

there are those cases that have said...

00:06:1117 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Judge Breyer, could you please discuss your

views on the proper scope of the extraterritorial application of our

antitrust laws—very briefly.

00:06:2829 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Well, I am glad you said "briefly," Senator, because

briefly, I know it is an enormously complex matter. There

used to be a case called...

00:06:5717 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

I might say we are working with the Justice

Department now on some legislation.

Judge Breyer, do you believe that U.S. antitrust laws should

apply...

00:07:1422 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

The normal rule is when firms behave similarly,

they are treated similarly; and where firms have an adverse impact

on this country, they...

00:07:3624 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Judge Breyer, I am aware that in the past,

you have lectured on the use of legislative history and touched on

it during the hearing. Could...

00:08:001 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

In summary form, I have thought that there are

many instances, indeed most, where an open question in a statute

is best understood through...

00:09:0511 sec.
Thurmond, James "Strom" Strom - U.S. Senator, [R] South Carolina

Judge, those are all the questions I have. I

think you are an able man and a fair man, and I hope you enjoy

your career on the Supreme Court.

00:09:168 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Thank you very much, Senator.

00:09:2454 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

Senator Kennedy is next to question. He is on

the telephone, I am told, right now; if staff would check to see if

he is ready to go. [Pause.]

Thank...

00:10:182 min.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I

appreciate your accommodating some of those on this committee

who are also on the Labor and Human...

00:12:431 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

In looking over the act and applying it over the

years, Senator, I recognize that the act is an effort to balance two

separate things. One...

00:14:032 min.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

We tried to provide some additional flexibility

for the judges also, on the ability of those who might be accused,

and where there was at...

00:17:0241 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

The first part of my answer is that particular

case was, in my mind, an extremely close question as to the

amount of evidence. It went back,...

00:17:433 min.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Well, I think we have had a good deal of talk

about the Boston courthouse, but I know just from visiting with

many of the disability groups...

00:20:491 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

It is a decision, Senator, that really gave me

enormous satisfaction as a person and as a judge. And the reason

I felt it important both...

00:22:252 min.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Well, it was a recognition, it seems, in any

fair reading of that case, that it really was not the kind of remedy,

and you came up with...

00:24:371 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Thank you very much.

00:24:3817 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

Thank you, Senator.

One thing on which there is no disagreement—and I do not disagree

with a single thing the Senator said—as I kidded you...

00:24:551 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

That is very complimentary.

00:24:5620 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

The only thing that Paul does, though, is he

spends time going like this, rubbing his face, and you just sort of

give a studied pause. In...

00:25:1616 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

Judge Breyer, would you explain to us the difference

between affirmative action and quotas?

00:25:3225 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

NO, because I am trying to decide in the—generally

speaking, I think affirmative action means you make an

enormous effort, you make a really...

00:25:5711 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

In other words, if there is no numerical figure

that is either set in law or policy, then it really is not a quota, but

an affirmative action...

00:26:081 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Then you are on the edge. I mean as I understand

it—and I am not saying how you would measure a person's

real effort—internally, internally,...

00:27:1437 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

If you have a situation such as the congressionally

established policy of affirmative action programs in the absence

of a change in that...

00:27:512 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

What has happened I think, Senator, in the affirmative

action cases legally in the Supreme Court is that the Supreme

Court basically has...

00:30:0028 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

The question I have is, if Congress were to

change the policy itself, so that there is no longer an affirmative

action policy, and yet either...

00:30:282 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

If you go beyond

00:30:302 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

In the absence of a congressional policy is what

I am asking.

00:30:3213 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

If you go beyond those cases you know where the

Supreme Court has spelled out what is permissible in terms of

these two sets of factors,...

00:30:456 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

I am saying that you simply do not have an affirmative

action program mandated by Congress.

00:30:511 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

YOU don't have one.

00:30:522 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

Assuming it is taken off the books.

00:30:5422 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Assuming it is taken off the books, then there are

still cases like Weber, for example, where the Supreme Court will

permit employers to...

00:31:1629 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

IS there ever a statute of limitations in terms of

past injustices, or is that something the court makes a determination

on as to whether...

00:31:4535 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Well, if it is a court case, I suppose that there are

now standards, which I am not totally familiar with, frankly, which

the Supreme Court...

00:32:201 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

IS that policymaking?

00:32:216 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

It isn't, if it is following the legal standard. But

one has to be careful.

00:32:273 min.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

I know you have talked quite a bit about legislative

history. I just want to go back over it for a few moments. In

your article on the uses...

00:35:301 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

The answer in my mind is, of course, it is different,

but that is a difference that courts should take into account,

and it doesn't make...

00:37:1541 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

The only point I would make is that many times

members are unaware of these declarations of intent, and for the

court to rely upon those...

00:37:561 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes.

00:37:5720 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

YOU struck down a Treasury Department regulation—

I will not go into the details of it—but, in any event, you relied

upon legislative history...

00:38:172 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

They did.

00:38:1922 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

What is interesting about it is that the dissent

pointed out that the majority was confused about the legislative

history. So, I was wondering...

00:38:4127 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I don't think so, actually. I understand that legislative

history can point in different directions and I understand it

can be complicated...

00:39:0825 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

I would like to turn quickly to the subject of

hate crimes. We have had in 1992 more than 7,000 hate crimes reported

in this country, most...

00:39:33
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes.

00:39:331 min.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

The defendant had burned a cross inside the

fenced yard of a black family, and the Court held that because the

State had not criminalized...

00:40:431 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

What I have said on this publicly really are two

things. One is in response to your question directly. Of course, it

is difficult in instances,...

00:41:5642 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

Yesterday, you talked about the Boston courthouse.

Let me come back to it for a moment. I see that Senator

Kennedy is not here, but I am...

00:42:382 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes.

00:42:402 min.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

It struck me that Boston doesn't really need that

kind of an attraction to be a meeting place. If you look at the tremendous

development...

00:45:233 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

NO, I think we followed all the rules.

00:45:2618 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

As you know, a lot has been made of the fact

that you have got 63 private bathrooms, 37 separate law libraries,

33 private kitchens, spiral...

00:45:448 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

The bathrooms, it is a general rule that a judge

does have a bathroom in his chambers, and there are a lot of people

working there and

00:45:522 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

How many judges in that building?

00:45:5454 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I think there is room for somewhere close to 30,

and there is the U.S. attorney, and there are a number of others.

Whatever the normal rules...

00:46:487 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

What was the total cost you recall of this facility,

$220 million?

00:46:5513 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I think Senator DeConcini gave the cost yesterday.

I think it is 750,000 square-feet. It is a big building, and I

think the cost, with land...

00:47:0834 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

I might point out that we are familiar with the

cost of expensive buildings. You are in one right now. As a matter

of fact, when it was...

00:47:424 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

I want the record to show that my office is not

in this building. [Laughter.]

00:47:462 min.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

YOU were then a senior member at the time.

Just a couple of more questions, Judge. I want to go back to the

book that you wrote that Senator...

00:50:213 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Thank you, Senator. The response is three. The

first is you put in half, I think, when you say too far; and the other

half is too little....

00:54:056 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

But you say the root of it is an ill-informed public

with skewed perceptions of risk

00:54:111 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes.

00:54:125 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

Fed by systematic media reports

and a distrust of the experts.

00:54:17
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Right.

00:54:1720 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

HOW do you propose to break that—and

compounded by Congress, which is also contributing to the distortions

of priorities—how do you break...

00:54:371 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

And this, you might say is Utopian, I know. But

you realize what it is I think the public is informed about. I do not

think they are not...

00:56:2718 sec.
Cohen, William S. - U.S. Senator, [R] Maine

I think that sort of outcomes analysis is probably

unrealistic in view of the life cycle of any President of this

country; that by the time...

00:56:455 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

Judge, I hope that was spoken as a political scientist

00:56:501 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN [continuing]. And not as a judge

Absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN [continuing]. Because we make those judgments

every...

00:58:281 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Judge Breyer, I would like to ask you a few questions about your

decision in the Ottati case. As I understand the...

00:59:3551 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Senator, I looked at this very carefully. There

was no party that I had invested in in the case. It had been fully

disclosed. The issue...

01:00:261 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Well, I know that there are some who

think that it was proper under the canons; there are some who disagree.

Justice Scalia—whom I did not...

01:01:4642 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

What he said was imprudent, Senator, he believes

that it is ethical, that no ethical canon was violated, and he

is concerned—and I have...

01:02:2827 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Having said that it would probably be

prudent not to have such an investment, isn't the corollary of that

equally true, and that is that...

01:02:551 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I think that I must have a very, very careful system

to achieve the very objective you are announcing and enunciating

and I have listened...

01:04:0428 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I think you said a direct, real impact.

What we are talking about in the Ottati case is not a question of

whether or not your investment...

01:04:321 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

That is right.

01:04:332 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

That could affect your investment.

01:04:351 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes.

01:04:3653 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

There is no question Lloyd's was not on

the Ottati liability. Now, as a matter of fact, environmental law experts

tell me that as a practical...

01:05:2930 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

The question, from my point of view, is was there

a real, direct impact on the investment. And I think the question

of whether there is...

01:05:5940 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Well, it should be pointed out that Ottati

did have a direct and predictable effect on pollution insurance, particularly

like Merritt 418,...

01:06:3950 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

If I thought there were a substantial, that is, a

direct, effect, I would have taken myself out, and that would be the

correct thing to...

01:07:2926 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

Would the Senator yield on Ottati? I am confused.

Since I asked about the case, Judge, I thought the facts in

Ottati were that the EPA chose...

01:07:551 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

That is correct.

01:07:5610 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

What I am confused about is how does that affect

any insurance case, on anybody. I am confused about that.

01:08:0615 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I could not find a way. I think it does not. I think

it does not. And I suppose there are people who have thought of

some way, but I think...

01:08:2136 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

If you had ruled—if the EPA had gone directly

to the district court judge under a different procedure, and the district

court judge substituted...

01:08:572 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Well, I would just say that I do not think

I want to debate the substance of the Ottati case with my friend,

the chairman, and I will ask...

01:11:0654 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I did not see it that way, Senator. I thought that

the case involved fact-related matters growing out of a particular

waste dump, and I...

01:12:005 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

That case, I think, had been dragged out

for about 10 years up until the time it got to you.

01:12:052 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes.

01:12:0757 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I think you added maybe another 5 years

to the matter of getting the matter resolved. And I think that does

help the defendants in those...

01:13:0460 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

On the issue of volatile organic compounds, one

of the fact-related issues, after reading through many thousands of

pages, we all came to...

01:14:041 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Well, in a recent book, you express actually

pretty much disdain for EPA's approach to cleaning up the environment.

In Ottati, when you...

01:15:162 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Are you going to let him answer? Do you want

to answer?

01:15:181 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

From my appearance of reading the records, Senator,

the area was the way I described it, and there was—but the

point that I want to make...

01:16:541 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I hope the Chair will continue to allow me

additional time for questions that are not mine.

Judge, the Ottati case becomes very relevant...

01:18:181 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I do, rather. That is to say, I do not know if you

are speaking theoretically or practically.

When I went into Lloyd's, I viewed it as a...

01:20:122 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

And that would have been about how

much money?

01:20:145 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

It would have been an awful lot of money. It depended

on the year. It depended on the year.

01:20:192 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

We are talking about something in excess

of

01:20:212 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

We are talking about several hundred thousand

dollars.

01:20:232 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Or maybe $1 million.

01:20:252 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

I do not think it could have gone that high, but

it is possible.

01:20:2744 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

But neither you nor I nor any of us know

what the loss will be in connection with this one particular syndicate

you went into, which was...

01:21:111 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Senator, what I do if I have a lot of money at

stake or if I have a little money at stake, if there is a big investment

or if there is a...

01:22:2122 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

In retrospect. You are saying it has been

verified by others. You mean that the White House asked some

ethics professors for their opinion,...

01:22:4311 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

What I must do as a judge is I must make up my

own mind on a case-by-case basis whether there is a substantial

impact or whether there is...

01:22:5435 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Would the Senator yield on that

point? I think we ought to put into the record, at this point in the

record, exactly what those letters...

01:23:293 sec.
Senator HATCH, -

And all but one found .in your favor and said

there was nothing unethical.

01:23:322 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Well, as a matter of fact

01:23:342 sec.
Senator HATCH, -

Let's get with it.

01:23:363 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I did not think that I was in a debate

with my colleagues on this committee.

01:23:394 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

We want an accurate statement of what has

been characterized in the record.

01:23:4330 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Well, the fact is I have no problem about

putting it in the record. Also put into the record the indication by

Professor Hazard that the...

01:24:132 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Well, he did not say it was imprudent.

01:24:151 sec.
Senator HATCH, -

NO, he did not say that.

01:24:1619 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

That is what we are getting at. He did not say

it was imprudent. He said because a potential for possible conflict

of interest, a possible...

01:24:353 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

What does he say about the word imprudent?

01:24:3837 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

I have put it in the record, Senator.

You have asked for my opinion whether Judge Breyer has committed a violation

of judicial ethics in...

01:25:152 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I have no objection putting that in.

01:25:172 sec.
Kennedy, Edward "Ted" M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Massachusetts

Well, that is different from what was stated.

01:25:192 sec.
Senator HATCH, -

It certainly was.

01:25:2133 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I want to ask the Chair also, there is a

letter coming from Professor Freedman, who indicates, as I understand

it, that he considers it...

01:25:541 min.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Yes, Senator. I have taken into account your concern,

and I understand the concern, and I think it is extremely important

that people have...

01:27:151 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I believe that that is a major step in the

right direction. I think it is the right step, and I think that the concerns

that many of us...

01:28:401 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Thank you, Senator.

01:28:412 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

I guess my time has expired.

01:28:434 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

YOU can have more time, because I interrupted

you, if you want to take a few more minutes.

01:28:472 min.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Several more. All right. I think I will.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On this whole question of the Merritt 418 and its relationship to

your...

01:31:363 sec.
Breyer, Stephen G. - Judge

Thank you, Senator.

01:31:392 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

Does that mean the matter is closed, Senator?

01:31:41
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

Pardon?

01:31:412 sec.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

Does that mean the matter is closed?

01:31:438 sec.
Metzenbaum, Howard M. - U.S. Senator, [D] Ohio

For the moment. [Laughter.]

I think so, but who knows what the next hour will bring?

01:31:511 min.
Biden, Joseph "Joe" R. Jr. - U.S. Senator, [D] Delaware

I surely do not.

I know the next 10 minutes will bring a break. You have been

sitting there a long time, Judge. Why don't we break until...

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