| 00:00:37 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Malcolm W. Browne, what's the origin of the title “Muddy Boots and Red Socks”? |
| 00:00:3750 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
It came out as sort of a joke actually, and it kind of stuck. In Vietnam, where I lived for about eight years, they used to say that there were people... |
| 00:01:272 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What led to this book now? |
| 00:01:2926 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I suppose the feeling that I'm probably nearing the end of my journalistic career and possibly my life, and while I still remember so much of the contemporary... |
| 00:01:55 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
End of your life? How old are you? |
| 00:01:553 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I'm 62. |
| 00:01:582 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What is your life expectancy? |
| 00:02:007 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I have no idea. Actually, my genes aren't all that great, so I think if I make it to 70, I'll probably be doing pretty well. |
| 00:02:07 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Where do you live now? |
| 00:02:0724 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I live in Manhattan in the shadow of the Empire State Building. I was born and raised in New York City. I think I'd be quite happy to move away from... |
| 00:02:312 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What's your beat? |
| 00:02:3342 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I'm technically called a senior writer, and I have been covering science for the last decade, but I have interpreted this to mean that since science... |
| 00:03:156 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
The W in the Malcolm W. Browne name is . . . |
| 00:03:2144 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
It stands for Wilde with an E at the end of it, and I know what you're getting at. My grandfather's first cousin was Oscar Wilde, who was famous for... |
| 00:04:052 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Did you ever read him? |
| 00:04:07 |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Oh, yes, absolutely. |
| 00:04:072 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Do you like what he did? |
| 00:04:0910 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, very much. His plays are marvelous. He had a tremendous wit. I wish that I could emulate him in some ways. So now I'm proud to have him on the... |
| 00:04:192 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Your mother was a Quaker. |
| 00:04:2154 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, a very dedicated Quaker who opposed war and killing in every way, shape or form. She was one of the few people during the late 1930s, when war... |
| 00:05:151 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
But I was living in Eastern Europe, in Belgrade as a matter of fact, during the period when Francisco Franco was dying in Spain. He, of course, was... |
| 00:06:3410 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let's take a close look at this cover. You see a typewriter there and you see some cigarettes and passports and I think a dog tag there and a camera. |
| 00:06:444 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
There's a Russian driver's license and a Chinese press card too. |
| 00:06:481 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Is all that stuff yours? |
| 00:06:4911 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, that's all mine. The camera has been battered and beaten in many and many a conflict, and that was used to take a photograph of a monk who burned... |
| 00:07:003 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
I want to show those pictures in just a moment. Was this cover your idea? |
| 00:07:0312 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
No, I had nothing to do with it. I'm very pleased with it though. My publisher Times Books of Random House I think did a wonderful job in putting it... |
| 00:07:1512 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You thank Peter Osnos in the opening acknowledgments, and then buried in your book you and Peter Osnos, when he used to be at the Washington Post, were... |
| 00:07:271 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes. |
| 00:07:284 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Years later what's that friendship like? |
| 00:07:3240 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
It's been very close because our paths have crossed in several parts of the world. We were contemporaries in Vietnam at one point in 1972 before I was... |
| 00:08:125 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Did he have anything to do with your doing this book with Times Books? |
| 00:08:1724 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes. He was my editor. Yes. He encouraged me to undertake it and suggested that when I wrote it that I keep my grandchildren in mind, which is exactly... |
| 00:08:414 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You mention your mother was a Quaker. What was your father? |
| 00:08:4524 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
My father was actually born and raised a Catholic but broke away from the Catholic faith when he sort of abandoned his roots in Los Angeles and came... |
| 00:09:091 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How many brothers and sisters? |
| 00:09:107 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I have one sister and two brothers, all of them younger than me. The youngest brother died a couple months ago. |
| 00:09:176 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How long have you lived in New York City, and where did you go to school? |
| 00:09:2337 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I was born in New York City, in Greenwich Village, which used to be sort of the bohemian and artistic quarter of Manhattan. In later years it's become... |
| 00:10:002 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
And then after school? |
| 00:10:0212 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Then I went to Swarthmore College, also a Quaker school in Pennsylvania, where I studied chiefly chemistry. After college then I worked as a laboratory... |
| 00:10:141 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Where? |
| 00:10:1545 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
In New York City for a consulting firm. Clients would come to us. I remember that a French chewing gum company came to us in 1954, I think it was, when... |
| 00:11:002 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How did you find yourself in Korea? |
| 00:11:0236 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I was drafted. The Army actually taught me two trades. It first taught me how to drive tanks, both Russian and American, and sent me to Korea. In Korea,... |
| 00:11:381 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How long were you in the service? |
| 00:11:396 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Two years, the minimum for a draftee. That was the normal tour of duty for draftees. |
| 00:11:452 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When did you go to work for the AP? |
| 00:11:4755 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
After getting out of the Army, I worked first for a small newspaper about a hundred miles north of New York City, with a very enlightened view. I conned... |
| 00:12:428 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Go back to Cuba just for a moment, and I'm looking for the gentleman's name that you write up so much -- La Cabaa. |
| 00:12:5050 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Herman Marks you're probably thinking of, the Yankee butcher executioner. Yes, he was one of the less savory characters there, and there were lots of... |
| 00:13:4046 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
There was the case a of young boy who asked before being shot that the executioner spare his face because he wanted his body returned to his family.... |
| 00:14:261 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
He ended up coming back to the States. |
| 00:14:2740 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, he did. He and a girl who was working as a stringer for UPI and had become enamored of this guy -- and I'm ashamed to admit that I introduced the... |
| 00:15:071 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
So he and Jean, this girl, hijacked a fishing boat and sailed it to the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico and wetbacked it up. He had been deprived of American... |
| 00:16:241 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
So in the end they simply gave up, and he came to a bad end, I believe. He took to beating up this girl. By this point I was in Vietnam, and she sought... |
| 00:17:532 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How long did you work for the AP? |
| 00:17:5513 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Let's see. I joined them in 1960, and I left them in 1965. In the interim I had won a Pulitzer and I had lots of job offers and I accepted the one from... |
| 00:18:082 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How long did you work for ABC-TV? |
| 00:18:10 |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
About a year. |
| 00:18:102 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Why so short? |
| 00:18:121 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I guess I became a little bit disenchanted. It seemed to me that there were a lot of things that I wanted to say about the Vietnam War, and it was very... |
| 00:19:34 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What was next? |
| 00:19:3448 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I was doing free lancing for a while. Because of my ABC contract, I had to do a couple of documentaries for them, and I did some radio work for the... |
| 00:20:2220 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
There's a picture in your book of three people, including you. The gentleman on the left is David Halberstam. The gentleman on the right is Neil Sheehan.... |
| 00:20:4222 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
That was one of the rare times when we were actually on the same operation together. I don't even remember what the operation was. But of course we... |
| 00:21:045 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Have the three of you ever gotten together and talked about the war? |
| 00:21:0932 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, it happens quite regularly. In fact, just a few weeks ago the New Yorker magazine asked us to assemble, along with Peter Arnett and Horst Faas,... |
| 00:21:415 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Do you agree on most things at this point looking back? |
| 00:21:4641 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, I guess so. The interesting aspect, I think, of our work at the time was that despite the fact that we weren't really cooperating with each other... |
| 00:22:2715 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
If the three of you were to walk into a room full of, let's say, "the Americans for Conservative Action" -- this is based on some of the things you... |
| 00:22:4235 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I guess it would depend on what type of conservatives they were. If they were simply idealogues without any knowledge of either Vietnam or other world... |
| 00:23:171 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Certainly none of the three of us were enemies of the armed forces per se. We were all loyal Americans. Neil and I were soldiers ourselves at various... |
| 00:24:286 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
In your book you say very positive things about Chester Bowles. |
| 00:24:3444 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
He was a prince of a man. There's no question about it. He was sort of the archetypical liberal, I suppose, in the sense that he was a Stevenson Democrat,... |
| 00:25:1815 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let me quote you quoting him: "The Cuban fiasco demonstrates how far astray a man as brilliant and well-intentioned as Kennedy can go who lacks a basic... |
| 00:25:3349 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I think Bowles admired Kennedy tremendously for his overall humane point of view in the conduct of world affairs. At the same time, I think that he... |
| 00:26:221 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
It happened that my AP colleague Peter Arnett and I were covering a Buddhist demonstration at that time at which the secret police beat up Peter pretty... |
| 00:27:392 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How many years, again, did you live in Vietnam? |
| 00:27:4117 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I figure about seven. It was five years continuously for the first stint, from ‘61 to ‘66, and then I was back a few times. I spent quite a long... |
| 00:27:583 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When did you first marry? |
| 00:28:0115 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I met my wife in 1961. Actually the second or third day I was in Vietnam I visited her because she was the deputy minister of information and chief... |
| 00:28:161 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Her name? |
| 00:28:172 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Her name was Huynh thi Le Lieu. |
| 00:28:191 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Are you still married? |
| 00:28:202 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Oh, yes, very happily so. |
| 00:28:221 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How many years have you been married? |
| 00:28:238 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
1965 we were married, so whatever that is -- really a quarter of a century, most of our adult lives. |
| 00:28:311 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Do you have children? |
| 00:28:323 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
No. I do by a previous marriage. |
| 00:28:354 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How did it come that you married a Vietnamese woman? |
| 00:28:3948 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
We were adversaries at first. Of course, it was her job. The government was furious at me most of the time, the Saigon government in the early 60s,... |
| 00:29:271 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
But in other aspects, they wore blue uniforms like the communists. The government officials had to attend weekly self-criticism sessions just as they... |
| 00:30:532 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
When did she become an American citizen? |
| 00:30:559 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
When we went back to the States for my fellowship year, which would have been 1966, she became an American. |
| 00:31:0411 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You tell a story in the book where the two of you are in, I believe, North Vietnam and there's a passport problem. You come back in through Vientiane,... |
| 00:31:1548 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, that's right. It was a nasty episode and it really sort of illustrated the petty meanness that some American officials saw fit to vent on me and... |
| 00:32:032 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
At any rate, my wife, Le Lieu, and I at that point were sort of commuting. We had no place to live, but we had hotel rooms simultaneously in Vientiane... |
| 00:34:272 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What did you win the Pulitzer Prize for? |
| 00:34:2955 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
The Pulitzer committee doesn't ever say, but I think basically it was for coverage of the political events and war as they unfolded in 1963. It was... |
| 00:35:249 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
How did this event take place, and how did it happen that you were there taking photographs? |
| 00:35:3352 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
The Buddhist monks had been conducting anti-government demonstrations for about a month and a half prior to this incident, demanding certain changes... |
| 00:36:252 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I think after a while my brother correspondents simply couldn't take them seriously because nothing ever happened, but as a wire-service man I couldn't... |
| 00:38:33 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What was the impact of that, and who published it? |
| 00:38:3319 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
It was published all over the world. Many morning newspapers in the United States refused to publish it on the grounds that it was just too awful a... |
| 00:38:521 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Never published it? |
| 00:38:531 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Never published it, no. Some interesting surveys were done by I think the Columbia School of Journalism was one of them to sound out newspapers as to... |
| 00:40:167 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
In your opinion when you were in Vietnam what people whom we would know played it straight with you and who didn't? |
| 00:40:238 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Certainly, Lodge, I think, was more honest than most of the U.S. officials that I had known. |
| 00:40:31 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who was he? |
| 00:40:3120 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Henry Cabot Lodge had been Nixon's running mate in their unsuccessful campaign against Kennedy. Lodge had remained in politics and paradoxically was... |
| 00:40:513 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Who was the most dishonest? |
| 00:40:5419 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I guess I would have to say that the person I disliked most was not actually in Saigon; he was in Washington. His name was Arthur Sylvester; he was... |
| 00:41:133 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Did you ever confront him? |
| 00:41:1630 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Oh, yes. Frequently. Particularly when I was on occasional home leaves, I'd be on the same speaking platform with him -- I remember at Cornell one time... |
| 00:41:461 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Was he editor of a Newark paper? |
| 00:41:472 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
That's right, yes. Newark News. |
| 00:41:4915 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let me read something you say in this book: "The real problem of aging is one's loss of humility and a corresponding gain in one's intolerance of errant... |
| 00:42:043 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
No, it certainly didn't. |
| 00:42:07 |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You've thought about that. |
| 00:42:071 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Absolutely. |
| 00:42:089 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Let me read it again: "The real problem of aging is one's loss of humility and a corresponding gain in one's intolerance of errant foolishness." What... |
| 00:42:171 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
As one gets older, as I get older, I find that I have to be brought up short every now and then or I sound off a little bit too positively. I think... |
| 00:44:009 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You were talking about people who appeared on the platform with you during the war period. Did you have a lot of unhappy experiences? |
| 00:44:0927 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Certainly, when a discussion is organized at a college campus, you are frequently posed against somebody else to balance the thing, although I remember... |
| 00:44:361 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Ernest Gruening. |
| 00:44:3752 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Ernest Gruening, yes, who was, to my mind, one of the great figures of the Vietnam war. He and Wayne Morse were the only two members of the Senate to... |
| 00:45:2932 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You talk about Herman Kahn, who's deceased but used to be with the Hudson Institute says -- or one of the other Vietnam crusaders, "Hearing my colleagues... |
| 00:46:0125 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, oh, yes they did. Of course, there was a replay of some of that after the Persian Gulf business, not that there was any implication that we had... |
| 00:46:2625 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
You talk about how people would say negative things about you. On the next page you talk about your friends being Martin Luther King, Pat Brown, Robert... |
| 00:46:511 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I was on their side to some extent, but |
| 00:48:1522 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
"I took years to come to terms with the trauma those last days of the war left me, and even now I try not to think about that cruel April 1975." On... |
| 00:48:371 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Oh, it is. Yes, I might at some point. I'd like very much to go back. For one thing, I think the hatreds have disappeared to some extent. But for me... |
| 00:50:0655 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
At the same time there was nobility in some cases too, people who made tremendous personal sacrifices to see their families survive. Vietnam has been... |
| 00:51:0128 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Since then you have lived in Yugoslavia and South America and Pakistan, and you've been to Bangladesh and you've covered Central America. I can go on... |
| 00:51:291 min. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I certainly have not seen any grounds for hope, particularly in Bangladesh or in some African nations or in some other south Asian nations simply because... |
| 00:52:445 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
We're jumping all over the place because we have just a little time left. Prague -- the most beautiful city in the world? |
| 00:52:4926 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
No question about it, with some very bad memories. During the Husk regime some of the worst human rights abuses happened in Prague. I can't help forgetting... |
| 00:53:1515 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Near the end you write, "There's Antarctica, a gleaming, white continent that seems the more beautiful for its resistance to human colonization. I return... |
| 00:53:3043 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I'm not a spiritual person, and I guess it's the sort of release from the heavy-handed politics of the outer world. I think that a region has to be... |
| 00:54:131 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Have you missed anything? |
| 00:54:142 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
In Antarctica? |
| 00:54:163 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
No, in your life. |
| 00:54:199 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes, I guess I missed the stability of having raised a family, I suppose, in the conventional way. I've missed . . . |
| 00:54:281 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
These are your kids? |
| 00:54:2927 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Yes. I've certainly missed the kind of career that I suppose I could have made if I had opted to be an editor or go up the journalistic ranks rather... |
| 00:54:562 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What is your favorite chapter in this book? |
| 00:54:5824 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Probably where I'm trying to draw some conclusions about where the world ought to be going right now. I think, at the risk of sounding a crank, I worry... |
| 00:55:222 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Another book in you? |
| 00:55:249 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Not for now. Maybe at some point. If so, it will probably be on some scientific matter rather than politics, I would guess. |
| 00:55:331 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Was this book hard to write? |
| 00:55:3410 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Parts of it were very hard to write because there are things in there that I've never really told anyone. It's like going to a father confessor or to... |
| 00:55:442 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What are the things you've never told? |
| 00:55:4610 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Some of my feelings about leaving Vietnam. For one thing, after the fall of Saigon I hadn't written about Vietnam at all. This is the first time I've... |
| 00:55:567 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
Any reaction to the book so far that surprises you from friends or reviewers or people that read it? |
| 00:56:0314 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
The reviewers have been very kind. It's only been out in the stores, I guess, for about a week now, so I'm waiting for the verdict to come in, but my... |
| 00:56:171 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
What do you hope the book does? |
| 00:56:1844 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
I hope to leave something of value for my otherwise worthless life to those who come after me, not just my own family but other journalists. I found,... |
| 00:57:029 sec. |
Lamb, Brian - Host
This is what the cover of this book looks like. The title is “Muddy Boots and Red Socks”, and the author is Malcolm Wilde Browne. We thank you very... |
| 00:57:1155 sec. |
Browne, Malcolm - Correspondent
Thank you very much for having me. |