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| TIME | SPEAKER | TEXT |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00 |
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IRIS CHANG, AUTHOR OF "THE RAPE OF MAN KING, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST OF WORLD WAR II." WHEN DID YOU... |
| 00:00:26 |
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IRIS CHANG, AUTHOR OF "THE RAPE OF MAN KING, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST OF WORLD WAR II." WHEN DID YOU... |
| 00:00:37 |
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WELL, IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. I LEARNED OF THIS EHAVEN'T WHEN I WAS A CHILD BUT I DIDN'T THINK OF... |
| 00:00:57 |
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WHAT WAS "THE RAIN OF MAN KING QET? |
| 00:00:59 |
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THAT'S ONE OF THE GREATEST ATROCITIES OF WORLD HISTORY IN DECEMBER OF 1937, THE JAPANESE SWEPT INTO... |
| 00:01:26 |
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WHY IS THERE SUCH A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN 20,000 AND 80,000? |
| 00:01:31 |
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IT'S OFTEN DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN THE EXACT NUMBER. MANY WOMEN WERE RELUCTANT TO COME OUT WITH THESE... |
| 00:01:39 |
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I'M LOOKING AT PAGE 59 AND THERE'S A GENTLEMAN HERE BY THE NAME OF OKUTO. WHO IS HE? |
| 00:01:46 |
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WELL, HE WAS A DOCTOR. HE'S A DOCTOR NOW BUT BACK IN 1937, HE WAS ONE OF THE SOLDIERS WHO COMMITTED... |
| 00:01:56 |
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THERE'S A -- I'M GOING TO READ SOMETHING HERE IN A MOMENT |
| 00:01:59 |
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NO. NO. THIS WAS TAKEN FROM AN ARTICLE, BUT THE STORY WAS JUST SO COMPELLING THAT I HAD TO PUT IT... |
| 00:02:07 |
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BEFORE I READ THIS, TELL ME WHAT THE STORY IS. |
| 00:02:12 |
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WELL, HE WAS IN -- ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE STORY IN THE |
| 00:02:18 |
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WELL THERE'S A SHRINE -- |
| 00:02:20 |
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WELL, HE'S A DOCTOR NOW AND HE FEELS SO TERRIBLE ABOUT WHAT HE DID, SO HE HAS PUT THE PICTURES OF... |
| 00:02:39 |
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LET ME READ A LITTLE BIT FROM WHAT YOU HAVE GOT IN YOUR BOOK. I REMEMBER BEING DRIVEN IN A TRUCK ALONG... |
| 00:04:04 |
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GOT A PICTURE HERE OF CORPORATIONS ALONG THE YANGTZE RIVER. THE BIG ONE. WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS PICTURE?... |
| 00:04:13 |
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THIS PICTURE, THAT ONE CAME FROM -- THAT'S -- YEAH, THAT'S A JAPANESE CORRESPONDENT WHO TOOK THAT... |
| 00:04:38 |
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WELL, ACTUALLY, I THINK WE DO WANT TO SHOW THE PICTURES SO THEY CAN SEE -- I MEAN, NOT THAT PICTURE,... |
| 00:04:50 |
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THE ONE ON THE LEFT? |
| 00:04:51 |
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RIGHT HERE. |
| 00:04:52 |
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OH, RIGHT, THAT'S A NUMBER OF HEADS THAT HAVE JUST BEEN PUT OUT. YOU KNOW, THIS WAS THE TYPICAL SCENE... |
| 00:05:12 |
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AND WHERE WAS THIS DONE? |
| 00:05:15 |
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THIS WAS DONE IN NAN KING, BUT ALSO THROUGHOUT -- I MEAN, THROUGHOUT CHINA, ACTUALLY. |
| 00:05:20 |
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WHAT WAS THE HISTORY OF WHY THE JAPANESE WERE IN CHINA IN 1937 IN NANKING? |
| 00:05:26 |
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WELL, IN 1937, THE JAPANESE FOUND AN OPPORTUNITY TO PROVOKE A WAR WITH CHINA, AND IT'S CALLED THE... |
| 00:06:25 |
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WHERE ISIANKING IN CHINA? |
| 00:06:27 |
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NANKING IS SITUATED IN A BEND OF THE YANGTZE RIVER. MAYBE WE CAN SHOW A MAP RIGHT NOW. |
| 00:06:34 |
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I'LL FIND IT. GO AHEAD. |
| 00:06:38 |
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IT'S ONLY A FEW MILES AWAY REALLY. |
| 00:06:39 |
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THIS SHOWS THE MASSACRE LOCATION. |
| 00:06:41 |
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THAT'S RIGHT. SHANGHAI WOULD BE ON THE COAST OF CHINA, AND THIS -- AND THEN NANKING IS FURTHER INLAND.... |
| 00:07:21 |
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ABSOLUTELY. |
| 00:07:22 |
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HOW MANY TIMES? |
| 00:07:24 |
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ACTUALLY, IN THE SUMMER OF 1995 I WAS THERE FOR -- YOU KNOW FOR SEVERAL WEEKS, ACTUALLY. JUST ONE TIME.... |
| 00:07:31 |
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AND WHAT'S YOUR PERSONAL CONNECTION TO NANKING? |
| 00:07:36 |
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WELL, MY FATHER WAS BORN IN THAT AREA. AND MY FAMILY ACTUALLY -- MY GRANDPARENTS USED TO LIVE IN NANKING.... |
| 00:07:54 |
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CAN YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME YOU HEARD OF THE RAPE OF NANKING? |
| 00:07:57 |
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YEAH, I WAS A LITTLE GIRL. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY HOW OLD I WAS, BUT I MUST HAVE BEEN IN GRADE SCHOOL... |
| 00:08:49 |
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WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT? |
| 00:08:54 |
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WELL, I THINK AS A CHILD I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT FOR ANOTHER 20 YEARS. THE RAPE OF NANKING DIDN'T... |
| 00:10:54 |
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WHO IS THIS WOMAN UP HERE? |
| 00:10:57 |
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LEE SHOW-WING. |
| 00:10:59 |
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YES, SHE IS. |
| 00:11:00 |
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AND WHAT'S THE STORY? |
| 00:11:04 |
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WELL, BACK IN 1937, SHE WAS A TEENAGE -- A WIFE OF A TECHNICIAN WHO HAD FLED FROM THE CITY OF NANKING... |
| 00:11:25 |
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WHERE DOES SHE LIVE NOW? |
| 00:11:26 |
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IN NANKING. |
| 00:11:28 |
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DID YOU TALK TO HER? |
| 00:11:32 |
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HOW LONG? |
| 00:11:33 |
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I SPOKE TO HER FOR SEVERAL HOURS, AND I FELT LIKE A TIME TRAVELER BECAUSE I SAW THIS PICTURE OF HER... |
| 00:11:43 |
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WHAT DOES SHE LOOK LIKE NOW? |
| 00:11:47 |
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WELL, SHE'S STILL A VERY -- SHE'S A VERY NICETY WOMAN. SHE'S VERY STRONG. ONE OF THE STRONGEST WOMEN... |
| 00:12:08 |
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AGAIN, SHE WAS STABBED 37 TIMES WITH BAYONETS? |
| 00:12:11 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. |
| 00:12:12 |
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CAN YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE STORY? WHERE WAS SHE AT THE TIME SHE WAS STABBED? |
| 00:12:20 |
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SHE WAS HIDING IN THE INTERNATIONAL SAFETY ZONE WHICH WAS A NEUTRAL ZONE ORGANIZED BY THE FOREIGNERS... |
| 00:13:14 |
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HOW DID SHE SURVIVE? |
| 00:13:15 |
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WELL, SHE SURVIVED JUST BARELY. ONE BAYONET STABBED HER RIGHT IN THE STOMACH AND SHE EVENTUALLY LOST... |
| 00:13:46 |
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NOW, SHE'S NOW 80 SOME YEARS OLD. WHEN YOU TALK TO HER, HOW MANY TIMES DID SOMEBODY ELSE ASK HER ABOUT... |
| 00:13:54 |
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OH, I THINK OTHER REPORTERS HAD TALKED WITH HER. I'M NOT REALLY SURE. |
| 00:13:58 |
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YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR DAD BEING BORN NEAR THERE. WHAT ABOUT YOUR GRANDPARENTS? HAVE WELL, MY MOTHER'S... |
| 00:14:26 |
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WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT? I MEAN, I KNOW -- I READ THE STORY, BUT TELL US MORE ABOUT IT. |
| 00:14:31 |
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OK. YOU SEE, WHEN THE FIGHTING SHANGHAI ESCALATED, IT JUST BECAME CLEAR TO MY GRANDFATHER THAT HIS... |
| 00:16:52 |
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WHEN DID THEY LEAVE CHINA? |
| 00:16:55 |
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THEY DIDN'T LEAVE CHINA UNTIL SHORTLY BEFORE THE 1949 COMMUNIST REVOLUTION. SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN... |
| 00:17:02 |
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ARE THEY ALIVE? |
| 00:17:03 |
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UNFORTUNATELY, BOTH HAVE PASSED AWAY. MY GRANDFATHER LIVED UP TO BE 94 YEARS OLD AND HE PASSED AWAY... |
| 00:17:20 |
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DID YOU TALK TO BOTH OF THEM ABOUT THE MATERIAL IN THIS BOOK? |
| 00:17:22 |
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YES. ACTUALLY, MY GRANDFATHER BECAUSE HE WAS A POET AND A JOURNALIST AND A BOOK AUTHOR, HE HAD WRITTEN... |
| 00:17:38 |
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WHERE DID YOU GROW UP? |
| 00:17:41 |
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I GREW UP IN ILLINOIS, WHICH IS WHERE MY PARENTS WERE PROFESSORS. |
| 00:17:43 |
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HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE THERE? |
| 00:17:48 |
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ALMOST EXACTLY 20 YEARS. I MOVED THERE -- MY FATHER WAS OFFERED A POSITION WHEN I WAS ABOUT 1. WENT... |
| 00:17:55 |
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ARE THEY STILL THERE? |
| 00:17:57 |
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YES, THEY ARE. |
| 00:17:59 |
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AND WHERE DID YOU MOVE AFTER YOU LEFT EXAM PLAIN, URBAN THAT? |
| 00:18:07 |
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I WORKED FOR THE ASSOCIATED PRESS AND THEN I WENT TO THE JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY WRITINGS SEMINARS... |
| 00:18:20 |
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WHERE DO YOU LIVE NOW? |
| 00:18:22 |
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IN SUNNY VEIL, CALIFORNIA WHICH IS THE HEART OF THE SILICONE VALLEY. |
| 00:18:26 |
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YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THAT THE JAPANESE HAVE NEVER APOLOGIZED FOR THIS. |
| 00:18:30 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. NEVER OFFICIALLY APOLOGIZED. |
| 00:18:32 |
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WHY? |
| 00:18:34 |
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WELL, I THINK BECAUSE THERE'S REALLY NO REASON FOR THEM TO DO UNLESS THEY WERE PRESSURED TO DO SO.... |
| 00:18:41 |
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WHY HASN'T SOMEBODY PRESSURED THEM TO DO SO? YOU COMPARE IT WITH WHAT THE GERMANS HAVE DONE. |
| 00:18:48 |
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I THINK MAYBE DEMOGRAPHICS HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. SOME OF THIS ACTIVISM BEHIND THE EVENTS IS... |
| 00:19:35 |
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BACK IN 1937, HOW MANY PEOPLE LIVED IN NANKING? |
| 00:19:39 |
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BEFORE THE BOMBINGS, BEFORE SOME OF THE EVACUATIONS ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE. |
| 00:19:43 |
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AND WHAT WAS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN CHINA AND JAPAN BACK THEN? WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE WORLD AND... |
| 00:19:49 |
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BACK IN 1937? OH, THINGS BY THAT POINT HAD BEEN TENSE. IN THE SUMMER OF 1937, JAPAN HAD HAD -- HAD... |
| 00:20:08 |
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BUT WHAT WAS THE REASON? |
| 00:20:11 |
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WELL, IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY, BUT THE JAPANESE HAD ACTUALLY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS AMBITIONS IN CHINA.... |
| 00:20:31 |
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WHAT'S THE REASON? |
| 00:20:32 |
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REASON FOR -- |
| 00:20:33 |
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THE ANIMOSITY? |
| 00:20:36 |
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WELL, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO GO INTO THIS, BUT THERE HAD ALREADY... |
| 00:21:04 |
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WHAT WAS IT AND WHAT IS IT ABOUT -- WHAT WAS IT THE JAPANESE CHARACTER THAT LED TO THIS KIND OF SLAUGHTERING?... |
| 00:21:14 |
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SEE, IT'S COMPLICATED. ANOTHER HISTORIAN SAID THAT TRYING TO PEER INTO THE JAPANESE MIND WAS LIKE... |
| 00:21:53 |
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SO THE JAPANESE -- |
| 00:21:55 |
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THE JAPANESE SOLDIER WAS SYSTEMATICALLY HAZED FOR YEARS BEFORE NANKING. I MEAN, HE WAS -- YOU HAVE... |
| 00:22:47 |
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HOW MUCH DISCUSSION HAVE YOU HAD WITH JAPANESE PEOPLE ABOUT THIS EVENT? |
| 00:22:54 |
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OH, I HAD -- I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO A GROUP OF JAPANESE STUDENTS WHO ARE STUDYING IN SAN... |
| 00:24:25 |
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IS THERE A CHINESE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM? |
| 00:24:29 |
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THERE'S A RAPE OF NANKING MUSEUM IN NANKING. IT HAS A BIG NUMBER 300,000 INSCRIBED ON IT, BUT THAT'S... |
| 00:24:45 |
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YOU SAY THAT THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES GOT INTO THIS? |
| 00:24:48 |
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WELL, ACTUALLY THAT'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT'S THE LIPINSKI BILL. |
| 00:24:52 |
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I DON'T MEAN THAT THEY GOT INTO THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM, BUT THE WHOLE ISSUE OF THE RAPE -- |
| 00:24:57 |
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WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. WILLIAM LIPINSKI, A DEMOCRAT FROM ILLINOIS, HAS INTRODUCED A BILL IN CONGRESS... |
| 00:25:47 |
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WHAT WAS THE KILLING CONTEST? YOU MENTIONED IT EARLIER, HOW DOES IT WORK? |
| 00:25:51 |
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OH, THE KILLING CONTEST. WELL, THERE WERE TWO SUBLIEUTENANTS WHO WANTED TO SEE WHO COULD KILL 100 CHINESE... |
| 00:26:20 |
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YOU HAVE GOT THE ACTUAL |
| 00:26:21 |
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THAT'S RIGHT. |
| 00:26:24 |
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YOU CAN SEE THE NUMBERS 105 AND 106. WHAT IS THAT? |
| 00:26:27 |
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THAT'S HOW CLOSE THEY WERE. THEY WERE RUNNING NECK TO NECK. ONE HAD KILLED 105 PEOPLE, ANOTHER HAD... |
| 00:26:36 |
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THAT WAS ACTUALLY PUBLISHED IN THE JAPANESE NEWSPAPER? |
| 00:26:40 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. THIS WAS SOMETHING THAT THE JAPANESE PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT AT THE TIME. |
| 00:26:44 |
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WHO WAS CONDUCTING THE CONTEST? |
| 00:26:45 |
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OH, THESE TWO -- |
| 00:26:47 |
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I MEAN, WHO WAS CHALLENGING THEM AND WHOSE IDEA WAS IT TO DO IT? |
| 00:26:50 |
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I'M NOT CLEAR ON THE DETAILS OF THIS, BUT THIS WAS NOT TYPICAL. THIS WAS WHAT WAS HAPPENING THROUGH... |
| 00:26:58 |
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IN NANKING, THE JAPANESE TURN MURDER INTO SPORT. NOTE THE SMILES ON THE JAPANESE INING THE GROUND,... |
| 00:27:07 |
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MANY WERE LATER COLLECTED BY THE NANKING GOVERNMENT FOR THEIR WAR CRIMES TRIBUNALS AGAINST THE JAPANESE... |
| 00:27:59 |
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A COUPLE OF THE PICTURES IN HERE ARE ROUGH TO LOOK AT. WAS IT A TOUGH DECISION TO PUT THEM IN THE BOOK?... |
| 00:28:04 |
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IT WAS. IT WAS. I WAS VERY CONCERNED THAT SOME OF THESE PICTURES WOULD RESULT IN THE BOOK BEING BANNED... |
| 00:28:32 |
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WHAT'S THIS PHOTO OVER HERE? |
| 00:28:35 |
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THAT'S THE PHOTO OF A WOMAN WHO -- A RAPE VICTIM WHO IS BEING FORCED TO POSE NEXT TO A JAPANESE SOLDIER... |
| 00:28:57 |
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ON THE OTHER PAGE AT THE TOP, WHAT'S THAT PHOTO? |
| 00:29:01 |
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I STILL HAVE PROBLEMS LOOKING AT IT. THAT'S A WOMAN WHO HAS BEEN IMPALED AFTER SHE HAS BEEN RAPED.... |
| 00:29:07 |
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DOWN HERE? AND WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS? |
| 00:29:12 |
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THIS AGAIN CAME FROM CHINA. IT WAS -- IT CAME FROM THE CHINESE ARCHIVES. |
| 00:29:17 |
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AND THE PHOTO ABOVE IT? |
| 00:29:18 |
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THAT'S A PICTURE OF A WOMAN WHO'S BEEN GANG RAPED AND SHE -- AS YOU COULD SEE, SHE HAS BEEN TIED TO... |
| 00:29:39 |
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WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF PUTTING THEM IN THE BOOK THEN? YOU DECIDED IN TEND, WHAT WAS -- THE CONVERSATION... |
| 00:29:47 |
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WELL, THERE WERE PEOPLE IN THE PUBLISHING HOUSE WHO HAD PROBLEMS LOOKING AT THE PICTURES. IN THE... |
| 00:30:13 |
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IF I WERE A JAPANESE SITTING HERE AND SAW THESE, I WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE WHAT'S YOUR PROOF THAT THESE... |
| 00:30:24 |
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ALL I CAN SAY IS THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF PAGES OF PRIMARY SOURCE DOCUMENTS ON THIS EVENT AND IN FOUR... |
| 00:30:46 |
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LET ME SHOW YOU THIS PICTURE RIGHT HERE AND TELL ME WHAT IT IS. |
| 00:30:49 |
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THE ONE TO THE RIGHT? |
| 00:30:52 |
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OH. |
| 00:30:53 |
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THE BAYONET. |
| 00:30:55 |
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THE BAYONETTING. WELL, THESE ARE PICTURES OF THE JAPANESE BAYONETTING VICTIMS, AND THEY'RE DOING IT... |
| 00:31:20 |
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YOU THEY IS JUST PRACTICE? |
| 00:31:21 |
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JUST PRACTICE. |
| 00:31:22 |
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BELOW THAT THIS PHOTOGRAPH? |
| 00:31:28 |
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THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF SEVERAL CHINESE VICTIMS BEING BURIED ALIVE AS JAPANESE SOLDIERS WATCH. |
| 00:31:35 |
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AND YOU ALSO TELL A STORY IN THERE WHERE THEY WOULD BURY SOME CHINESE VICTIMS UP TO THEIR HEADS AND... |
| 00:31:46 |
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TEAR THEM APART. |
| 00:31:47 |
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TEAR THEM APART. |
| 00:31:48 |
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DO YOU HAVE ANY PICTURES OF THAT? |
| 00:31:49 |
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NO. THANK GOD. |
| 00:31:51 |
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HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT? |
| 00:31:53 |
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WELL, THAT WAS -- THAT CAME OUT OF -- YOU KNOW, ARCHIVAL DOCUMENT, SO IT CAME OUT OF DESCRIPTIONS... |
| 00:32:16 |
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IF WE HAD -- WHEN DID YOU START WRITING THIS BOOK OR WHEN DID YOU START COMPILING ALL THE INFORMATION?... |
| 00:32:20 |
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I STARTED COMPILING THE INFORMATION PROBABLY IN JANUARY OR FEBRUARY 1995. |
| 00:32:29 |
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AND I NOTICED THAT AS LATE AS AUGUST -- ALMOST THE END OF AUGUST YOU HAD SOMETHING QUOTED IN HERE... |
| 00:32:40 |
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WELL, YOU SEE, WE HAD TO PUBLISH THIS RIGHT AT THE LAST MINUTE BECAUSE ALL OF THIS ACTIVISM, IT'S... |
| 00:33:11 |
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AND WHY IS -- YOU MEAN, YOU@g"$#RR,$aRR I NEVER THOUGHT FOR INSTANCE THAT I WOULD END UP FINDING THE... |
| 00:33:39 |
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YOU TALK TO HIS DAUGHTER? OR GRANDDAUGHTER -- |
| 00:33:41 |
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THAT'S RIGHT. I MEAN, I'VE TRACKED DOWN THE FAMILY WHEN I THINK THE BOOK WAS ALMOST FINISHED. SO YES,... |
| 00:33:53 |
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WHO IS JOHN ROBAY? |
| 00:33:54 |
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JOHN WAS THE HEAD OF THE NATD SI PARTY IN NANKING, BUT HE WAS ALSO THE HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL SAFETY... |
| 00:34:23 |
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YOU HAVE A LETTER DATED 8 JUNE, 1938. IT IS CALLED DEAR FUROR, -- DEAR FUHRER, SIGNED JOHN ROBAY.... |
| 00:34:36 |
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RIGHT. THAT WENT TO HITLER. |
| 00:34:37 |
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WHY? |
| 00:34:39 |
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HE WAS TRYING TO STOP THE HIGHEST ATROCITIES. HE MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE NAIVE BUT HE REALLY THOUGHT... |
| 00:35:12 |
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WHICH ONE? |
| 00:35:15 |
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THE PICTURE THAT'S A LITTLE |
| 00:35:16 |
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WHICH ONE -- |
| 00:35:18 |
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TO THE RIGHT. |
| 00:35:19 |
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OK. FINE. WE'LL GET IT HERE SO PEOPLE CAN SEE WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE. |
| 00:35:24 |
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HE SHOT SCENES FROM THE NANKING HOSPITAL. AND IT WAS THIS FILM THAT WAS REPRODUCED AND, YOU KNOW N... |
| 00:36:21 |
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WHERE IS THAT FILM? |
| 00:36:26 |
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THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. WELL, JOHN MCGEE'S FILM IS AVAILABLE IN THE UNITED STATES. I MEAN, SEVERAL... |
| 00:36:51 |
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IF YOU SAW THE JOHN MCGEE FILM, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? WOULD YOU SEE THE ATROCITIES? |
| 00:36:57 |
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YOU WOULD SEE PEOPLE BEING LED AWAY BY THE JAPANESE SOLDIERS. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HE COULDN'T JUST... |
| 00:37:44 |
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SHIRA IS WHO? |
| 00:37:47 |
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THAT IS A JAPANESE VETERAN OF THE RAPE OF NANKING. AND HE STILL -- HE'S STILL ALIVE AND HE'S IN JAPAN... |
| 00:37:56 |
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AND YOU CORRESPONDED WITH HIM? |
| 00:37:57 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. |
| 00:37:59 |
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HOW DID THAT WORK? HOW DID YOU FIND HIM? |
| 00:38:01 |
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WELL, I HAD TO TRACK HIM DOWN AND I THINK A JOURNALIST BARUMA WAS THE ONE WHO GAVE ME HIS ADDRESS.... |
| 00:38:35 |
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WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM HIM? |
| 00:38:36 |
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WHAT I LEARNED WAS THAT THE JAPANESE SOLDIER REALLY HAD TO SEE THE CHINESE AS SUBHUMAN BEFORE THEY... |
| 00:38:54 |
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RIGHT ABOVE THAT IN THE BOOK YOU CAN PUT THIS INTO THE CONTEXT, A VETERAN OFFICER NAMED TOMINOGA RECALLED... |
| 00:39:15 |
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THAT WAS IN THE SECONDARY SOURCES THAT CAME FROM A BOOK. |
| 00:39:17 |
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HE SCOOPED WATER FROM A BUCKET WITH A DIPPER, THEN POURED IT OVER BOTH SIDES OF THE BLADES. HE SWAZED... |
| 00:39:50 |
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WELL, I GUESS IT WOULD DEPEND ON THE INDIVIDUAL, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY WOULD THINK, BUT I THINK... |
| 00:40:09 |
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WELL, EVEN ACCORDING TO YOUR TESTIMONY, THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT. |
| 00:40:12 |
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I SOME OF THEM DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT, BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO DO. AND I REMEMBER TALKING TO SOME JAPANESE... |
| 00:40:32 |
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WILL YOUR BOOK BE PUBLISHED IN JAPAN? |
| 00:40:34 |
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I'M NOT REALLY OPTIMISTIC THAT IT WILL BE, BUT PERHAPS SOME KIND OF SMALL, RADICAL PUBLISHER WILL... |
| 00:40:46 |
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FROM WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THE BOOK TRIED TO BE SOLD OVER IN JAPAN? |
| 00:40:51 |
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I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'LL TELL YOU THAT THE ONE THAT'S COME OUT TO APOLOGIZE FOR HIS ROLE IN THE MASSACRE,... |
| 00:41:38 |
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THAT WAS IN 1989. |
| 00:41:39 |
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THAT'S RIGHT. SO WE HAVE A COUNTRY THAT IS LIVING IN DENIAL. AND I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU, I AM COMPLETELY... |
| 00:42:48 |
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WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH THIS? |
| 00:42:55 |
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WELL, I WANT THE WHOLE WORLD TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. I WANT THE ENTIRE WORLD TO KNOW THE TRUTH. |
| 00:43:00 |
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AND HOW FAR ARE YOU WILLING TO TAKE IT? |
| 00:43:03 |
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WELL, I THINK I'VE -- JUST WRITING THE BOOK IS THE -- WAS THE BIGGEST STEP REALLY FOR ME. I THINK... |
| 00:43:17 |
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AND ALSO IN THE BOOK, YOU HAVE SOME AMERICANS. ONE IN PARTICULAR IS ROBERT WILSON. WHO WAS HE? |
| 00:43:25 |
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ROBERT WILSON IS -- WAS A MISSIONARY DOCTOR AND HE WAS THE ONLY SURGEON IN NANKING DURING THE GREAT... |
| 00:43:35 |
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AND WHAT ROLE DID HE PLAY? |
| 00:43:38 |
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WELL, HE WAS THE PERSON WHO ENDED UP HAVING TO STITCH UP THE SURVIVORS WHO CAME, YOU KNOW, STRAGGLING... |
| 00:43:58 |
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WHAT WAS THE ZONE? |
| 00:44:00 |
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THE INTERNATIONAL SAFETY ZONE IT WAS 2 1/2 SQUARE MILES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, WHICH THE FOREIGNERS... |
| 00:44:36 |
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HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE INSIDE THAT ZONE? |
| 00:44:41 |
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HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. ONE ACTUALLY SAID 300,000. ONE OF THE ZONE MEMBERS SAID 300,000 WERE IN THE... |
| 00:44:48 |
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YOU TELL A STORY ABOUT HOW CHINESE SOLDIERS WOULD COME IN AND THEN THE JAPANESE WOULD COME IN. HOW... |
| 00:45:00 |
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WELL, THEY SEARCHED THEIR HANDS TO SEE IF THEY HAD ANY CALLUSES FROM HANDLING GUNS. THEY ALSO EVEN... |
| 00:45:24 |
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WAS THERE A TRIAL OF ANY KIND |
| 00:45:29 |
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YES. WELL, THE BIGGEST ONE WAS THE TOKYO WAR CRIMES TRIAL OR THE FORMAL NAME IS THE INTERNATIONAL... |
| 00:45:49 |
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WAS THERE EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED IN WORLD WAR II HAPPENED AT THIS TRIAL? I MEAN, DID IT COVER EVERYTHING?... |
| 00:45:57 |
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YES, IT WAS -- THEY WERE TRYING TO COVER EVERYTHING. BUT THEY ALSO HAD A LOCAL TRIAL TOO FOR NANKING.... |
| 00:46:05 |
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AND HOW LONG DID THAT GO ON? |
| 00:46:07 |
|
IT WENT ON FOR SEVERAL MONTHS. IT WAS MAINLY -- THESE WERE HELD IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WAR. |
| 00:46:11 |
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THAT WAS HELD IN NANKING? |
| 00:46:12 |
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YES. OF COURSE, THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE FAR EAST LASTED CONSIDERABLY LONGER. I MEAN, WENT... |
| 00:46:21 |
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HOW MUCH PUBLICITY WAS THERE FOR THIS EVENT, EITHER IN NANKING OR IN JAPAN? |
| 00:46:27 |
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WELL, THERE WAS CONSIDERABLE PUBLICITY. I THINK IT WAS THE LONGEST WAR CRIMES TRIAL IN HISTORY AND... |
| 00:46:39 |
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YOU TELL A STORY IN THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK ABOUT COMMODORE MATTHEW PERRY AND HOW THE AMERICANS... |
| 00:46:51 |
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OH, WELL, WHAT PERRY DECIDED TO DO WHEN THE JAPANESE IGNORED REQUESTS FROM THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT... |
| 00:48:22 |
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WHAT HAPPENED NEXT TO THE COUNTRY? |
| 00:48:25 |
|
WELL, THE COUNTRY DID PRECISELY THAT AND THERE WAS THE MAJ -- THERE WAS THE MAJOR RESTORATION AND... |
| 00:48:49 |
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DOES THE RAPE OF NANKING OR THE MASSACRE AT13 HAVE ANY IMPACT ON THE RELATIONSHIP TODAY BETWEEN CHINA... |
| 00:49:02 |
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IT'S VERY INTERESTING THAT YOU ASK ME THAT, BECAUSE MANY OF THE P.R.C. OFFICIALS THAT I'VE MET THAT... |
| 00:49:43 |
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IN THE BACK OF YOUR BOOK YOU SAY THERE ARE A NUMBER OF LESSONS. ANOTHER LESSON TO BE GLEAN FRED NANKING... |
| 00:50:29 |
|
WHAT DID THEY THINK WHEN YOU WENT TO CHINA IN 1995? DID THE OFFICIALS KNOW WHAT YOU WERE DOING THERE?... |
| 00:50:34 |
|
IN 1995? NO THEY DIDN'T. AND ACTUALLY I WAS A LITTLE CONCERNED WHEN I WENT BACK BECAUSE I HAD JUST... |
| 00:51:03 |
|
DID THEY KNOW WHO YOU WERE? |
| 00:51:04 |
|
THE PEOPLE IN NANKING DIDN'T. ALL THEY KNEW WAS THAT I WAS A SCHOLAR WHO WAS OUT THERE SEEKING INFORMATION.... |
| 00:51:13 |
|
YES. |
| 00:51:15 |
|
NOT YET. |
| 00:51:17 |
|
WHAT DOES YOUR HUSBAND DO? |
| 00:51:18 |
|
HE IS AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND WORKS IN SILICON VALLEY AND HAS BEEN INCREDIBLEY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS... |
| 00:51:26 |
|
YOU SAID YOU LIVE IN SUNNYVALE RIGHT IN SILICON |
| 00:51:28 |
|
CORRECT. |
| 00:51:29 |
|
IT SEEMS LIKE THERE IS SOMEBODY IN THIS BOOK LIVING IN SUNNYVALE. |
| 00:51:35 |
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IT TURNED OUT THAT THERE WAS A PARAMEDIC, YOU KNOW, IN NANKING, WHO NOW LIVES IN SUNNYVALE. I MEAN,... |
| 00:52:00 |
|
IN THE BOOK YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BEGINNING OF THE RAPE OF NANKING AN INCIDENT THAT 57,000 |
| 00:52:08 |
|
OH, YES. THAT MUST BE THE MOUNTAIN MASSACRE. THAT IS CORRECT. |
| 00:52:12 |
|
WHAT WAS THAT? |
| 00:52:14 |
|
WELL, WHAT THEY HAD DONE WAS THEY HAD KEPT THESE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS IN THESE CAMPS AND... |
| 00:52:33 |
|
WAS THAT THE MOST THAT EVER DIED AT ONE TIME? |
| 00:52:36 |
|
I THINK IT MAY HAVE BEEN. |
| 00:52:37 |
|
WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF WHAT WOULD LEAD A HUMAN BEING TO DO THIS KIND OF THING? |
| 00:52:45 |
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I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE MUCH MORE CAPABLE OF COMMITTING THESE ATROCITIES THAN WE WOULD THINK AND IF... |
| 00:53:15 |
|
HAVE YOU TALKED AT ALL ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN RWANDA? |
| 00:53:19 |
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ACTUALLY IN THIS BOOK IT MENTIONS RWANDA JUST BRIEFLY, BUT I WOULD SAY WHAT I WAS LOOKING -- WHEN... |
| 00:53:52 |
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YOU TELL A STORY IN HERE OF A WOMAN WHO TO THIS DAY WON'T GIVE HER REAL NAME OR WAS RAPED AND I CAN'T... |
| 00:54:05 |
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YES. THERE WERE MANY HALF JAPANESE HALF CHINESE CHILDREN BORN AS A RESULT OF THE RAPE AND ONE OF ... |
| 00:54:53 |
|
HOW INTERESTED HAVE YOU FOUND AMERICANS IN THIS STORY? |
| 00:54:56 |
|
I AM SURPRISED AT THE RESPONSE. IT'S OVERWHELMING. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ALMOST EVERYONE I'VE TALKED... |
| 00:55:06 |
|
WHY DON'T WEAN ABOUT IT IN THE UNITED STATES? |
| 00:55:10 |
|
WELL, I ASSUME -- I WONDER IF IT'S MAYBE DEMOGRAPHICS, YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY STUNNING TO ME THAT --... |
| 00:55:48 |
|
WHAT WAS THAT MOMENT IN HERE THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT WHEN F.D.R. HAD HOW MUCH, 30 SECONDS OF FILM OR... |
| 00:55:58 |
|
MAYBE 30 FEET OF FILM. |
| 00:55:59 |
|
RIGHT. |
| 00:56:00 |
|
YES. THE -- WELL, AS YOU KNOW, THE JAPANESE HAD BOMBED THE U.S.S. PENAI AND SOME AMERICANS DIED AS... |
| 00:56:24 |
|
WHAT WAS THE PENAI BY THE |
| 00:56:25 |
|
IT WAS A GUN BOAT. |
| 00:56:27 |
|
IT WAS BOMBED DECEMBER 12, 1937? |
| 00:56:30 |
|
YES. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE TWO NEWS REEL MEN ABOARD AND ONE OF THEM -- BOTH OF THEM TOOK FOOTAGE... |
| 00:57:04 |
|
WHY? |
| 00:57:06 |
|
WELL, WE COULD ONLY SPECULATE ON THE REASONS WHY. IT'S PROBABLY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT TO JEOPARDIZE... |
| 00:57:15 |
|
WE'RE OUT OF TIME. THIS IS OUR GUEST BOOK JACKET "THE RAPE OF NANKING" AND OUR GUEST HAS BEEN |
NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
