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| 00:00:34 |
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THIS WEEK ON "BOOKNOTES," OUR GUEST IS ANDREW SULLIVAN, EDITOR OF "THE NEW REPUBLIC." HE JOINS US... |
| 00:00:54 |
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ANDREW SULLIVAN, WHY DID YOU CALL YOUR BOOK "VIRTUALLY NORMAL"? |
| 00:00:58 |
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IT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I... THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT I, I SORT OF DECIDED TO GET ALL THE IRONY OUT... |
| 00:02:09 |
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THE SECOND PART OF THIS WILL EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT: "AN ARGUMENT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY."... |
| 00:02:14 |
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YEAH. |
| 00:02:15 |
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WERE THOSE WORDS CHOSEN CAREFULLY? "AN ARGUMENT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY"? |
| 00:02:19 |
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YES. EVERYTHING... I MEAN, I HAVE TO SAY, I'VE BEEN MORE CAREFUL ABOUT THIS BOOK AND WHAT I'VE WRITTEN... |
| 00:03:53 |
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WHAT'S YOUR FULL-TIME JOB? |
| 00:03:56 |
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I EDIT A WEEKLY MAGAZINE, THE "NEW REPUBLIC," AND THAT IS, I TOOK TWO MONTHS OFF LAST SUMMER TO GET... |
| 00:04:20 |
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WHAT DID THE OWNER OF THE "NEW REPUBLIC," MARTY PERETZ, SAY WHEN YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO DO THIS BOOK?... |
| 00:04:30 |
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UM, I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD THAT PART OF WHAT THE "NEW REPUBLIC" IS ABOUT, AT LEAST I UNDERSTAND IT... |
| 00:05:32 |
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DID YOU EVER HAVE... HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN AT THE "NEW REPUBLIC"? |
| 00:05:34 |
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FOUR AND A HALF YEARS AS EDITOR. |
| 00:05:36 |
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DID YOU EVER SIT DOWN WITH MARTY PERETZ IN THE BEGINNING AND TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE GAY... |
| 00:05:43 |
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YEAH, ACTUALLY. |
| 00:05:44 |
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WHAT DID HE SAY? |
| 00:05:47 |
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I SAID TO HIM... WELL, ACTUALLY, HE SAID TO ME, AS I REMEMBER THE CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW, "THERE ALL... |
| 00:06:31 |
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WHO'S "THEY'RE," "THEY ARE"? |
| 00:06:35 |
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THE MEDIA, THE OUTSIDE WORLD. IT WAS NOT A QUALIFICATION TO EDIT A NATIONAL MAGAZINE. IT HAS NOTHING... |
| 00:10:07 |
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YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THAT THERE ARE BETWEEN 2% AND 5% OF |
| 00:10:10 |
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YEAH. |
| 00:10:13 |
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WHERE DO YOU GET 2% AND 5%? I MEAN, THE... |
| 00:10:16 |
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I GET IT OUT OF THE AIR. I DON'T, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY KNOWS. |
| 00:10:19 |
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FIRST THING I THOUGHT ABOUT IS THAT A LOT OF GAY PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS HAVE SAID IT'S 10%. |
| 00:10:25 |
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I KNOW, AND I, WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK, ACTUALLY, BEFORE I SAY 2% AND 5%, I SAY IT REALLY SHOULDN'T... |
| 00:11:40 |
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WHAT ROLE DOES THE GOVERNMENT PLAY IN A GAY PERSON'S LIFE? |
| 00:11:48 |
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IT PLAYS, FIRST OF ALL, A VERY FUNDAMENTAL ROLE, I THINK, IN WHAT IT DOESN'T DO. I MEAN, MAYBE I SHOULD... |
| 00:18:28 |
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HAWAII-- WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THE WAY THE STATE OF HAWAII TREATS GAYS? |
| 00:18:32 |
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WELL, IT'S IN LIMBO RIGHT NOW. ESSENTIALLY WHAT'S HAPPENING HAS QUITE COMPLICATED THE LEGAL PROCESS,... |
| 00:22:26 |
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HAVE YOU BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN? |
| 00:22:27 |
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NO. I'M IN MY... IT'S QUITE AN ELABORATE PROCESS. I'M EN ROUTE. |
| 00:22:32 |
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HOW MANY YEARS DO YOU HAVE TO WAIT? |
| 00:22:34 |
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WELL, IT'S A... YOU HAVE PERMANENT RESIDENCE, AND THEN YOU HAVE CITIZENSHIP, AND BIZARRELY, EVEN THOUGH... |
| 00:25:11 |
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WHERE WERE YOU BORN? |
| 00:25:14 |
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I WAS BORN IN ENGLAND, IN A SMALL TOWN CALLED EAST GREENSTEAD, WHICH IS A... I WASN'T BORN THERE,... |
| 00:26:00 |
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WHAT DO THEY DO? |
| 00:26:02 |
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WELL, MY DAD WORKS FOR AN INSURANCE COMPANY. HE'S ABOUT TO RETIRE. MY MOTHER WORKS PART-TIME IN A ... |
| 00:26:12 |
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BROTHERS AND SISTERS? |
| 00:26:13 |
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I HAVE A BROTHER AND A SISTER. MY BROTHER WORKS AGAIN IN AN INSURANCE COMPANY IN THE CITY OF LONDON,... |
| 00:26:25 |
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WHAT'S A FAG IN BRITAIN? I MEAN, YOU REFER... |
| 00:26:27 |
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IT'S A CIGARETTE. |
| 00:26:29 |
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BUT YOU REFER IT... BUT YOU REFER TO, YOU KNOW, YOUNG GAY... |
| 00:26:32 |
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YEAH, I THINK THAT'S THE ORIGIN OF THE WORD, ACTUALLY. I MEAN, I'M NO... I'M NOT A... I'M NOT BILL... |
| 00:27:32 |
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WHERE'S THE ORIGIN OF THE WORD "QUEER"? |
| 00:27:36 |
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THAT GOES BACK A LONG WAY, TOO, ACTUALLY. IT GOES BACK TO THE 14th AND 15th CENTURIES IN ITS APPLICATION... |
| 00:28:05 |
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BECAUSE SOME GAYS DO USE IT AS A... |
| 00:28:07 |
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YEAH. |
| 00:28:10 |
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I MEAN, IN WHAT... WHAT WAY? I MEAN, MAKING FUN OF OTHERS MAKING FUN OF THEM? |
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WELL, THERE'S... THERE ARE VARIOUS... I MEAN, I SAY IN THE BOOK, ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DO THAT,... |
| 00:32:03 |
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WHO DOESN'T? |
| 00:32:05 |
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A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AFFECTED BY IT; THEY JUST DON'T SEE IT... |
| 00:32:09 |
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NON-GAYS? |
| 00:32:11 |
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A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO AREN'T GAY OR EVEN... EVEN GAY PEOPLE WHO TRY AND DENY THAT IT'S HAPPENING. |
| 00:32:15 |
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HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU KNOW... FIRST OF ALL, HOW MANY HAVE YOU KNOWN THAT HAVE DIED... |
| 00:32:20 |
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KNOWN? |
| 00:32:23 |
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...OF AIDS, YOU. |
| 00:32:26 |
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JUST KNOWN? I MEAN, MET, KNOWN? |
| 00:32:32 |
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KNOWN, ARE AWARE OF... |
| 00:32:36 |
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OH, IN TERMS OF KNOWN OR AWARE OF, YOU KNOW, DOZENS AND DOZENS. I CAN CLOSE MY EYES NOW AND THINK... |
| 00:33:47 |
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NOW, THE PERSON SITTING AND LISTENING TO YOU WHO THINKS THAT GAYNESS IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO GO, AND... |
| 00:34:16 |
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OH, YEAH. OF COURSE. |
| 00:34:19 |
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I MEAN, IS IT... IS IT IN DECLINE? IS IT... |
| 00:34:24 |
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UM, I THINK THERE WAS A... I MEAN, I THINK IT'S NOT EVEN A QUESTION OF MY THINKING, I MEAN, IT'S PROVEN... |
| 00:35:12 |
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BEFORE WE GO INTO THIS, LET ME GO BACK TO YOUR... YOUR BEGINNING IN ALL OF THIS IN... IN GREAT BRITAIN.... |
| 00:35:20 |
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NEAR IT, LIKE, A COUPLE OF... I WENT TO A MAGNET SCHOOL WHICH WAS A BUS RIDE AWAY. |
| 00:35:27 |
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AT WHAT AGE DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE DIFFERENT? |
| 00:35:34 |
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WELL, AS I SAY IN THE BOOK... I MEAN, THE BOOK STARTS WITH THE QUESTION "WHAT IS A HOMOSEXUAL?" AND... |
| 00:36:54 |
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DID YOU EVER DATE WOMEN? |
| 00:36:55 |
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YES, THOUGH VERY UNCOMFORTABLY. |
| 00:36:59 |
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YOU MEAN YOU WERE ALWAYS UNCOMFORTABLE? |
| 00:37:03 |
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YES, INCREDIBLY UNCOMFORTABLE-- NOT AROUND WOMEN. AND IN FACT, I LOVED GOING ON DATES WITH THEM,... |
| 00:38:15 |
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I REMEMBER THAT AGE 23 WAS AN |
| 00:38:16 |
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YEAH. I MEAN, I WAS ALSO, YOU KNOW, A GOOD CATHOLIC BOY AND... AND... AND, YOU KNOW, REALLY STRUGGLED... |
| 00:40:04 |
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YOU SAID HE WAS RATHER LARGE. |
| 00:40:10 |
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HE WAS... HE WAS ALSO VERY FAT. I MEAN, HE... HE COMPENSATED IN OTHER WAYS, YOU KNOW; PEOPLE DO. BUT... |
| 00:40:34 |
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ARE YOU STILL CATHOLIC? |
| 00:40:35 |
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YEAH. |
| 00:40:36 |
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PRACTICE IT? |
| 00:40:37 |
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YES. |
| 00:40:40 |
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DOES THE CHURCH ACCEPT IT? |
| 00:40:42 |
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ACCEPT WHAT? |
| 00:40:43 |
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YOUR GAYNESS. |
| 00:40:45 |
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UM... YES, THEY ACCEPT-- AND I GO INTO SOME DETAIL IN THE BOOK ABOUT EXACTLY THE EXCRUCIATING COMPROMISE... |
| 00:44:31 |
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WE NEVER DID FIND OUT WHAT AGE 23 WAS FOR YOU? |
| 00:44:35 |
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AGE 23 WAS WHEN I FIRST FELL IN LOVE-- OR RATHER, THAT'S NOT TRUE. IT'S WHEN I FIRST FELL IN LOVE... |
| 00:46:35 |
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HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN OPENLY GAY? |
| 00:46:38 |
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NOT THAT LONG, REALLY. I MEAN, IT SEEMS LIKE FOREVER, BUT I TOLD, I GUESS MY PARENTS, SIX YEARS AGO.... |
| 00:46:52 |
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AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW IT? |
| 00:46:53 |
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THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T KNOW IT. |
| 00:46:56 |
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YOU SAY IN THE BOOK YOU'RE PARTICULARLY CLOSE TO YOUR MOTHER. |
| 00:46:57 |
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YEAH. |
| 00:47:00 |
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WHAT WAS HER REACTION? |
| 00:47:01 |
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DO YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH? |
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MM-HMM. |
| 00:47:10 |
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WELL, IT WAS VERY BRITISH. I SAID, "I'M GAY. I WAS HAPPY AND I ALWAYS WILL BE, AND I JUST WANT YOU... |
| 00:48:49 |
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WHAT DID YOUR DAD SAY? |
| 00:48:50 |
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AND SHE WENT AND MADE A CUP OF TEA-- I SWEAR TO GOD; I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP. AND IF... I CAN LAUGH... |
| 00:52:20 |
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WHAT YEAR DID YOU GO TO OXFORD? |
| 00:52:23 |
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1981. I GOT A SCHOLARSHIP TO GO TO OXFORD, UNTIL '84, AND THEN I GOT A... I WAS VERY LUCKY; I GOT... |
| 00:53:52 |
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HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE YOUR POLITICS? |
| 00:54:04 |
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COMPLICATED. I THINK THAT I'M... PHILOSOPHICALLY, I'M PRETTY LIBERAL. I MEAN, I THINK THE BOOK ACTUALLY... |
| 00:55:43 |
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YOU SAY IN THE BOOK THAT IT'S HARD, THAT HOMOSEXUAL LIFE IS HARD. HOW HARD IS IT TO TALK ABOUT THIS?... |
| 00:56:01 |
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IT IS HARD. I MEAN, YOU CAN TELL. WE'VE TALKED HERE AND IT'S NOT THE EASIEST THING. AND I'M ASKED...... |
| 00:58:05 |
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THIS IS THE COVER OF THE BOOK. THE TITLE IS "VIRTUALLY NORMAL: AN ARGUMENT ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY," AND... |
| 00:58:18 |
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THANK YOU. [Captioning sponsored by THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION] [Captioned by The Caption Center... |
NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
