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| TIME | SPEAKER | TEXT |
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| 00:00:00 |
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THE U.S. HOUSE GAVELS IN AT 12:34 SHORT GENERAL SPEECHES OTHER WORK BEGINS AT 2:00 P.M. EASTERN. IN... |
| 00:00:52 |
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WE WILL HEAR ARGUMENTS IN NORDYKE VS. KING. WHEN TO MAKE SURE YOUR ONLINE AND CAN HIT THE PROCEEDINGS... |
| 00:01:02 |
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I CAN HEAR YOU FINE. LET ME KNOW IF YOU CANNOT HEAR ME. |
| 00:01:10 |
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THE COUNCIL FOR THE APPELLATE, YOU MAY PROCEED. CAN COUNCIL SEE THAT? IS THAT POSITION RIGHT FOR YOU?... |
| 00:01:20 |
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YES, YOUR HONOR. MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT AND I REPRESENT THE PELLETS IN THIS MATTER, SEATED AT THE... |
| 00:02:19 |
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I AM NOT SURE HOW THAT WILL IMPACT YOUR ARGUMENT, BUT I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. |
| 00:02:28 |
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I HAVE PREPARED REMARKS AND I AM ALSO PREPARED TO HAVE THE COURT ASKED QUESTIONS. |
| 00:02:34 |
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I AM SURE WE WILL HAVE QUESTIONS. |
| 00:02:37 |
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I AM ASKING TO REVERSE THE DECISION OF THE TRUCK COURT AND FINED IT UNCONSTITUTIONAL AS APPLIED THE... |
| 00:03:27 |
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WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SUMMARY ARGUMENT. WE'RE LOOKING AT WHETHER THE O'BRIEN TEST APPLIES NOT. |
| 00:03:36 |
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IF C. O'BRIEN TEST US UP LIKE, THEN THIS CASE REALLY HINGES ON THE FIRST AND FOURTH PART OF THE O'BRIEN... |
| 00:04:06 |
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YOU ARE NOT SAYING, ARE YOU, WHICH WOULD INDICATE O'BRIEN THAT THIS ORDINANCE, WHICH IS A GUN POSSESSION... |
| 00:04:25 |
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NOT ON ITS FACE IS NOT, YOUR HONOR. BUT BEFORE THIS COURT ONCE BEFORE IN A FACIAL CHALLENGE AND THEN... |
| 00:05:13 |
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I THOUGHT O'BRIEN REQUIRED THAT THERE BE SOME INDICATION THAT THE CHALLENGE LEGISLATION MUST BE AIMED... |
| 00:05:37 |
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YOUR HONOR, THE COUNTY SPECIFICALLY REGULATES EXPRESSION WITH GUNS WHEN IT WENT INTO THE BUSINESS... |
| 00:05:59 |
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WITH RESPECT TO THAT EXCEPTION, POSSESSION OF FIREARMS BY AUTHORIZE PARTICIPANTS IN A MOTION PICTURE,... |
| 00:06:26 |
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I WOULD RESPOND TO THAT IN SEVERAL WAYS. THE COUNTY HAS NEVER INTERPRETED THAT TO APPLY TO GUN SHOWS.... |
| 00:07:19 |
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TO FOLLOW UP ON THE JUDGE'S QUESTION, DID IN THE FAIR GROUNDS AND ASK WHAT KIND OF PLAN YOU WOULD... |
| 00:07:28 |
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WE RESPONDED WITH A LETTER TO SAY THAT WE WERE -- THAT WE SAW NO -- WE SAW NOTHING IN THE PLAN AND... |
| 00:09:28 |
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THERE IS NO EXPRESS EXCLUSION OF GUN SHOWS BUT AN EXCEPTION MIGHT THE EVENTS LIKE THE SCOTTISH GAMES.... |
| 00:09:35 |
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WITH RESPECT TO THE FACTS OF THIS CASE, THAT IF THIS ORDINANCE HAD CONTAIN AN ORDINANCE FOR GUN SHOWS,... |
| 00:09:46 |
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YOU MIGHT WANT TO GET INTO YOUR INCORPORATION ANNOUNCES THEN. THIS MAY BE THE FIRST CASE SINCE HELLER,... |
| 00:10:06 |
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OUR POSITION IS THAT, BASICALLY FOOTNOTE 23 OF THE HELLER DECISION AND IT COULD BE ALMOST CONSTRUED... |
| 00:11:06 |
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FOOTNOTE 23 LITERALLY SAYS WITH RESPECT TO CRUIKSHANK AND IN CORP., A QUESTION NOT PRESENTED IN THIS... |
| 00:11:24 |
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THAT IS MOSTLY BECAUSE IT ROSE WITH THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA. IT DID SAY THAT THE -- THE FEAR THAT... |
| 00:11:56 |
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HOW CAN WE DO THAT IN LIGHT OF OUR THREE JUDGE PANEL DECISION IN THE FRESNO CASE, WHICH CITED DUNCAN?... |
| 00:12:05 |
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IT DID CITE DUNCAN. |
| 00:12:07 |
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IS THE THE DUNCAN WAS A DUE PROCESS CASE. |
| 00:12:11 |
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I WOULD AGREE, YOUR HONOR. |
| 00:12:14 |
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ARE WE DONE BY THE CASE? |
| 00:12:15 |
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NO, YOU ARE NOT. WE SAID THAT A THREE JUDGE PANEL IS ENTITLED TO REVISIT ANOTHER THREE JUDGE PANEL... |
| 00:12:38 |
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BECAUSE THEY DID NOT RETURN THE ISSUE OF INCORPORATION? |
| 00:12:44 |
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THIS COURT HAS TO ENGAGE IN AN ANALYSIS SIMILAR TO WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DID AND ORDER TO FIND OUT... |
| 00:13:39 |
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YOU ARE ARGUING THAT FRESNO DID NOT DO THE DUE PROCESS AND ALIENATION -- THE DUE PROCESS ANALYSIS.... |
| 00:13:52 |
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NOT ONLY DID IT NOT DO THE DUE PROCESS, THE CASE WAS ALMOST TOTALLY ABOUT PRIVILEGES OF IMMUNITY AND... |
| 00:14:11 |
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ON THE IN CORP. ISSUE, WHICH YOU SAY THAT HELLER ITSELF, SAYS THAT THE SELECTED INCORPORATION DOCTRINE... |
| 00:14:37 |
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I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT, YOUR HONOR. IT MAY BE THE ONLY TEST BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT... |
| 00:14:58 |
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IF YOU LOOK AT THE MILLER DECISION, AND WE SAY THAT FRESNO IS CLEARLY RECONCILABLE WITH HELLER, IF... |
| 00:15:29 |
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YES, YOUR HONOR. |
| 00:15:33 |
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EVEN IF WE WERE TO BE PERSUADED THAT THERE IS IN CORP., YOU STILL HAVE TO GET TO THE MERITS. WHAT... |
| 00:16:35 |
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I HAVE SEVERAL RESPONSES TO THAT. NUMBER ONE, THIS SENSITIVE PLACES DOCTRINE PROCEEDS THE ORDINANCE,... |
| 00:17:30 |
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GO AHEAD, JUDGE. |
| 00:17:38 |
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THERE IS A SLIGHT DIFFERENT ISSUE THAT IS, GIVEN THAT THE AMENDMENT WAS NOT PERMITTED, IT SHOULD WE... |
| 00:18:34 |
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I BELIEVE BOTH PARTIES TO ADDRESS THAT ISSUE IN THEIR BRIEFS. I BELIEVE THAT ONE OF THE THINGS WE... |
| 00:19:26 |
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WHICH YOU PLAYED ANYTHING DIFFERENT IN THE LIGHT OF HELLER AND THE COMPLAINT THAT YOU HAD EARLIER?... |
| 00:19:37 |
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I AM NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THAT QUESTION. |
| 00:19:45 |
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IN YOUR EARLIER MOTION TO AMEND, YOU ADDED AN AMENDMENT THAT WAS NOT PERMITTED, MY QUESTION IS IF... |
| 00:20:10 |
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NO, I WOULD NOT. I BELIEVE THAT THE ORDINANCE IS PROBABLY FACIALLY INVALID AN INVALID AS APPLIED TO... |
| 00:20:20 |
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COUNSEL, YOU ARE DOWN TO ONE MINUTE, WHICH LIKE TO RESERVE? |
| 00:20:26 |
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I LIKE TO RESERVE. |
| 00:20:27 |
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WE WILL HEAR FROM COUNTY. |
| 00:21:00 |
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I AM PETER PEARCE AND I AM HERE TO REPRESENT THE COUNTY. JOHNSON VS. TEXAS DOES NOT APPLY HERE. THIS... |
| 00:22:01 |
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I SUPPOSE THE ARGUMENT IS INCIDENTAL. THE EFFECT IS CHILL THE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. |
| 00:22:15 |
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THE O'BRIEN COURT RECOGNIZE THAT WHEN SPEECH AND NON SPEECH OF ELEMENTS ARE INVOLVED IN THE SAME COURSE... |
| 00:23:52 |
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IS THAT WITH RESPECT TO EXEMPTION NO. 4? WITH THAT FITS WITHIN THE NO. 4 AS AN EVENT? |
| 00:24:05 |
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XIT FOR THE CELL, WITH THE REST OF THE DEMONSTRATION AND THE SHOWING FIT WITHIN THAT EXEMPTION? |
| 00:24:12 |
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IF THE PLAINTIFFS WANTED TO CONDUCT A GUN SHOW WITHIN THE EXCEPTION THEY COULD AND THAT IS WHY THEY... |
| 00:24:58 |
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I ASSUME FROM YOUR EARLIER REMARKS THAT IN ANY EVENT, NO SELF BE COMMITTED UNDER THIS ORDINANCE. |
| 00:25:04 |
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KNOW, THAT IS NOT THE CASE AT ALL. IT IS IN THE COUNTY'S POSITION ALL ALONG THAT PLAINTIFFS WOULD... |
| 00:25:35 |
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IT SEEMS STRANGE TO ME THAT YOU CAN HAVE A GUN SHOW WITHOUT THE SHOWING OF GUNS. [LAUGHTER] |
| 00:25:49 |
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HOW COULD THE ORDINANCE TAKE CARE OF THAT? |
| 00:25:53 |
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THE POINT IS TAKEN, YOUR HONOR, BUT I DO NOT THINK HE CAN BE ASSUMED AS A MATTER OF LAW THAT A SALE... |
| 00:27:37 |
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YOU MAY PROCEED. |
| 00:27:39 |
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THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. BEFORE THE COURT REACHES THE CORP. QUESTION, IT SEEMS APPROPRIATE TO ASK WHETHER... |
| 00:28:43 |
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YOUR OPPOSING COUNSEL REFERRED TO THE SENSITIVE PLACES PASSAGE. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE? |
| 00:28:52 |
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OUR RESPONSE IS THAT THE COUNTY FAIR GROUNDS IS A SENSITIVE PLACE AND THAT THE DETERMINATION CAN BE... |
| 00:30:30 |
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I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU ON THAT. I HAVE TWO RELATED QUESTIONS. IF INDIVIDUALS, AS HELLER SAID, HAVE... |
| 00:31:17 |
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YOUR HONOR, WITH RESPECT TO THE FIRST QUESTION, IS THERE A COROLLARY RIGHT THAT ENSUES FROM HELLER,... |
| 00:32:08 |
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DOES THE RECORD THAT WAS MADE ON THE FIRST AMENDMENT CLAIM TELL US WHAT OPPORTUNITIES PEOPLE HAVE... |
| 00:32:24 |
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OTHER THAN AT A GUN SHOW, NO, BUT GUN SHOWS CAN BE HELD ON PRIVATE PROPERTY, AT LEAST THE ORDINANCE... |
| 00:33:08 |
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THANK YOU. |
| 00:33:14 |
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IT IS THE COUNTY'S POSITION THAT BEFORE THE COURT CAN EITHER REACHED THE INCORPORATION QUESTION, AND... |
| 00:33:44 |
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IF WE ARE NOT PERSUADED BY YOUR SEQUENCE, IN OTHER WORDS, WE MIGHT REACH IN CORP. AND THEY GET TO... |
| 00:33:59 |
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YES, YOUR HONOR. IT IS THE COUNTY'S POSITION THAT THIS IS BOUNDED BY PRESIDENT TO CONCLUDE THAT THE... |
| 00:34:13 |
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ARE YOU RELYING ON FRESNO FOR THAT? |
| 00:34:21 |
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IT RECOGNIZES THAT CRUIKSHANK HELD THAT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS A CONSTRAINT ON ACTIONS OF THE FEDERAL... |
| 00:36:37 |
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NOTWITHSTANDING THE LITERAL TEXT A FOOTNOTE 23, THE ENTIRE REST OF THE OPINION SEEMS TO DWELL ENORMOUSLY... |
| 00:37:38 |
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YOUR HONOR, I THINK THAT DISCUSSION WOULD BEAR UPON WHETHER OR NOT THE RIGHT TO POSSESS A FIREARM... |
| 00:38:44 |
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SUPPOSE THIS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA AS THAT OF A COUNTY OR A STATE, WHAT WOULD ANSWER BE? |
| 00:38:54 |
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WHETHER THE RIGHT WAS INCORPORATED? |
| 00:38:56 |
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I AM TRIED TO PUT HELLER IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS CASE. OBVIOUSLY HELLER WAS A STATUTE PROHIBITED POSITION... |
| 00:39:26 |
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FINK THAT ANSWER WOULD STILL BE NO, YOUR HONOR. IT WOULD SEEM TO DEPEND ON WHETHER OR NOT -- |
| 00:39:48 |
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DID YOU JUST DISTINGUISHED THE RIGHT TO HAVE THE ARMS IN THE HOME OR FOR PURPOSES OF SELF-DEFENSE,... |
| 00:40:04 |
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WHAT I WAS SAYING IS THAT THE RIGHT IS NOT IMPLICATED ON THIS RECORD, WHAT IS CRUCIAL AND HELLER IS... |
| 00:40:14 |
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EXACTLY. MY QUESTION COMES BACK TO WHY SHOULD -- IF WE HAD THE HELLER STAT SHEET AND A STATE OF CALIFORNIA,... |
| 00:40:35 |
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BECAUSE, YOUR HONOR, -- THE JUDGE GOLD MADE REFERENCE TO THIS WHETHER THE SEC CAN'T -- FOR A THE SECOND... |
| 00:41:39 |
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THANK YOU, COUNSEL, YOUR TIME HAS EXPIRED. MR. KILMER, YOU HAVE ABOUT ONE MINUTE. |
| 00:41:49 |
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THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. WE'RE NOT ASKING THE COURT FOR PERMISSION TO CARRY GUNS ANYWHERE ON COUNTY... |
| 00:42:09 |
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IN TERMS OF COMPLIANCE, YOU HEARD WHAT MR. PIERCE HAD TO SAY, WHY DON'T YOU FIT WITHIN EXCEPTION NO.... |
| 00:42:17 |
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BECAUSE WHEN WE ASK THE COUNTY AND CORRESPONDENCE BEFORE -- |
| 00:42:27 |
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THEY SAY YOU DID NOT GET THEM A PLAN. |
| 00:42:31 |
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THE PLAN WAS GIVEN BY THE FAIR GROUNDS MANAGER. A GUN SHOW COULD TAKE PLACE AS LONG AS THERE ARE NO... |
| 00:43:32 |
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THANK YOU, COUNSEL. THE CASE JUST ARGUE WOULD BE SUBMITTED FOR DECISION AND THE COURT WILL ADJOURN.... |
NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
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Kilmer, Donald E. J. Jr.
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Pierce, T. Peter
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