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| TIME | SPEAKER | TEXT |
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| 00:00:10 |
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COMING UP NEXT BOOK TV PRESENTS AFTERWARDS AN HOUR-LONG INTERVIEW PROGRAM WHERE WE INVITE GUEST HOSTS... |
| 00:01:06 |
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BILL GERTZ, I FEEL CONSTRAINED AT THE OUTSET TO SAY JUST A DISCLAIMER. WILBON FRIENDS FOR A LONG TIME... |
| 00:02:34 |
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SURE. LET ME SAY FIRST THAT THIS BOOK IS THE LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN MY PREVIOUS FIVE BOOKS WHICH... |
| 00:05:10 |
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SPEAKING OF ONE OF THOSE YOU LEAD THE BOOK OFF WITH A FASCINATING EXAMPLE OF THIS PHENOMENON. THE... |
| 00:05:47 |
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WELL, THIS NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE ESTIMATE ON IRAN WAS PRODUCED IN DECEMBER OF 2007 AND IT REALLY IS... |
| 00:07:41 |
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THIS IS A REALLY EXTRAORDINARY STORY BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I, THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE... |
| 00:08:25 |
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SURE. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY APPALLED TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO... |
| 00:09:48 |
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UNCRITICALLY? |
| 00:09:52 |
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AND THEY HAD HALTED THEIR PROGRAM. EVEN THE INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC AGENCY REALIZED AFTER THIS INTELLIGENCE... |
| 00:10:45 |
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IT'S RIGHT UP AT THE FRONT PART OF THE SUMMARY OF THE NIE AS WELL SO IT WASN'T A QUESTION THAT LEND... |
| 00:10:52 |
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YES, IT WAS VERY CORROSIVE BECAUSE AT THE TIME THE U.S. HAD BEEN IN THE MIDST OF A MAJOR INTERNATIONAL... |
| 00:11:41 |
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IN FACT, AS YOU KNOW IT'S NOW A WELL-ESTABLISHED ROUTE TO GET NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF... |
| 00:13:11 |
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YEAH, I ACTUALLY ARGUE HERE THAT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, AGAIN, IT COMES DOWN TO POLITICS AND POLITICS... |
| 00:14:44 |
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AND THIS IS A PRESIDENT WHO HAS PRESUMABLY HAD HIS OWN PEOPLE THAT HE WILL BRING TO OFFICE THAT WOULD... |
| 00:15:44 |
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I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN THE VERY BEGINNING, FIRST OF ALL, PRESIDENT BUSH DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WASHINGTON.... |
| 00:17:41 |
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RIGHT. WELL, IN POINT OF FACT, JUST TO DRILL DOWN A LITTLE BIT ON THAT, IN MANY OF THE POSITIONS IN... |
| 00:18:19 |
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YES. THERE WERE CONSERVATIVES IN THERE BUT THEY IMMEDIATELY BECAME TARGETS. I POINT OUT THE STORY... |
| 00:19:19 |
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IN THAT REGARD, YOU ALSO MENTIONED ANOTHER OF MINE, CHRISTOPHER HILL, WHO WAS PROMINENT IN THE NORTH... |
| 00:19:29 |
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CHRIS HILL TOOK OVER WHAT HAS BECOME KNOWN AS THE SIX-PARTY TALKS. HIS REAL POSITION IN THE STATE... |
| 00:20:52 |
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THE PRESIDENT DESCRIBED HOW HE LOATHED THIS REGIME. SO IT IS A FAR DISTANCE HE'S COME. PEOPLE WOULD... |
| 00:21:14 |
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I WOULD SAY IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM IN THAT I'VE SEEN -- I'VE BEEN IN WASHINGTON A LONG TIME AND I'VE... |
| 00:22:36 |
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THE KISSINGER ROLE IN ALL OF THIS IS A FASCINATING ONE, AS YOU KNOW VERY WELL, BILL, HE WAS THE ARCHITECT... |
| 00:23:05 |
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YES. I THINK IT'S REALLY A CRITICAL ISSUE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO UNDERSTAND CHINA. IN FACT, I HAVE... |
| 00:24:25 |
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YEAH. I THINK YOU'VE WRITTEN ON MANY OCCASIONS AS WELL AS ANYBODY ABOUT THE TECHNOLOGY THEFT AND ... |
| 00:25:42 |
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THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT BUREAU GOVERNMENT AGENCY IN TERMS... |
| 00:26:22 |
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HOW DOES THAT WORK. THEY ARE DETAILED OVER IN SOME FORMAL SENSE? DO THEY LEAD THE FOREIGN SERVICE?... |
| 00:26:29 |
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NO, THEY ARE ON LOAN. THEY ARE DETAILED FROM THEIR VARIOUS AGENCIES TO GO AND WORK THERE. I IDENTIFY... |
| 00:27:59 |
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WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT TOWARDS THE END TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS.... |
| 00:29:47 |
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"AFTER WORDS" WITH BILL GERTZ AND FRANK GAFFNEY CONTINUES. |
| 00:29:53 |
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WE WERE TALKING BEFORE THE BREAK ABOUT THE EXERCISE OF POWER BY DEMOCRATS AND IN PARTICULAR THE PRACTICE... |
| 00:30:21 |
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I THINK A GENERAL RULE THE DEMOCRATS ARE BETTER AT GOVERNMENT POLITICS JUST BECAUSE OF THE NATURE... |
| 00:31:04 |
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WOW! |
| 00:31:06 |
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THEY HAVE A POLITICAL OUTLOOK. IT MAY NOT BE A STRONG POLITICAL OUTLOOK BUT THEY TEND TOWARDS A LEFT... |
| 00:31:25 |
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JUST JUST BLAME AMERICA FIRST BUT BLAME ALWAYS? |
| 00:31:27 |
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BLAME AMERICA. IT'S INTERESTING WHEN I TALK TO MY LIBERAL FRIENDS, YOU KNOW, I'LL BRING UP SOME --... |
| 00:31:33 |
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YOU DO HAVE LIBERAL FRIENDS. FULL DISCLOSURE HERE? |
| 00:31:36 |
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I BRING UP TO THEM CERTAIN ISSUES LIKE NORTH KOREA AND IRAN AND THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE IS WELL, THE... |
| 00:31:59 |
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AND THAT'S TRUE EVIDENTLY IN THE PENTAGON AS WELL. I SERVED THERE MYSELF AS YOU KNOW AND YOU'VE BEEN... |
| 00:32:25 |
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I COVERED THE PENTAGON FAIRLY CLOSING FOR MANY YEARS. AND, OF COURSE, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT THE FIRST... |
| 00:33:39 |
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LIKE WHO? |
| 00:33:41 |
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WELL, I THINK THE MOST SIGNIFICANT WAS VICTORIA CLARK WHO WAS THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR... |
| 00:34:42 |
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INACCURATE INFORMATION, AS I UNDERSTAND IT? |
| 00:34:44 |
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YES. AND IT WAS SOMEHOW THIS PROGRAM WAS GOING TO PUT OUT DISINFORMATION. IN OTHER WORDS, THAT THE... |
| 00:35:39 |
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IT'S MORE THAN JUST WORDS. IT'S IDEAS AS WELL AS YOU SAY. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST... |
| 00:36:45 |
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THIS GOES GOES AGAINST THE WAR OF IDEAS AND THIS IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING NOT JUST... |
| 00:38:37 |
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BUT WASN'T THE PROBLEM THAT THE GROUPS THAT THEY WERE REACHING OUT TO WERE ISLAM BROTHERHOOD FRONT... |
| 00:39:07 |
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THE KEY BENEFIT OF WAS THAT HE WAS ABLE TO IDENTIFY THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BY NOT PROPERLY APPROACHING... |
| 00:40:35 |
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YEAH. I JUST HAVE TO ASK YOU ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WAS STRUCK BY YOU CHRONICLED IN CONSIDERABLE... |
| 00:41:14 |
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WELL, IT'S INTERESTING. GROVER IS AN INTERESTING CHARACTER IN THAT GROVER'S FOCUS HAS BEEN AMERICANS... |
| 00:41:53 |
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BUT I ENCOURAGE YOU TO TAKE A LOOK HARD BECAUSE IT IS A SUBJECT WORTHY OF YOUR KIND OF GENRE OF INVESTIGATIVE... |
| 00:42:55 |
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I'M CRITICAL OF GATES BECAUSE OF THE NOTION OF DEFERRING TO THE BUREAUCRACY RATHER THAN TRYING TO... |
| 00:44:44 |
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THE ANALYSIS SIDE? |
| 00:44:45 |
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RIGHT. HE CAME IN AND HAS A BIAS AGAINST DEALING HARSHLY WITH TERRORISTS AND INTERROGATING TERRORISTS,... |
| 00:45:18 |
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DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE? |
| 00:45:21 |
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DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE. AND MICHAEL HAYDEN BECAME THE HEAD OF THE CIA. THESE WERE PEOPLE... |
| 00:45:55 |
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JUST TO LOOP BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION, ONE OF THE OTHER PIECES OF THIS THAT TROUBLED... |
| 00:46:28 |
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TO ME THIS WAS THE RESULT OF THE LIBERAL POLITICAL BIAS WITHIN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY ITSELF.... |
| 00:47:48 |
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BILL, LET'S -- WE'VE TOUCHED ON A COUPLE OF MILITARY OFFICERS THERE. I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE SOME OF... |
| 00:48:12 |
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YES, I BELIEVE THE PENTAGON DURING THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION -- THEY SOUGHT VERY AGGRESSIVELY THE... |
| 00:48:45 |
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GENERALS AND ADMIRALS? |
| 00:48:46 |
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AND ADMIRALS THEY ROSE TO PROMINENCE AND I FEATURE ONE IN PARTICULAR, ADMIRAL WILLIAM FALLEN. FALLEN... |
| 00:49:43 |
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BUT AGAIN, THE REASON HE QUIT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, HE WAS COMPLETELY AT ODDS WITH THE PRESIDENT'S... |
| 00:49:50 |
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RIGHT. |
| 00:49:52 |
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WE HAD HIM WRONG ON CHINA, WE HAD HIM WRONG ON IRAN AS WELL. BEFORE WE RUN OUT OF TIME, TWO OTHER... |
| 00:50:24 |
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SURE, JOSH BOLTON WAS THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF. CAME FROM GOLDMAN SACHS, THE INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL... |
| 00:51:49 |
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YEAH. AS YOU KNOW, IN FACT, YOU REMARK ON IT IN THE BOOK, I FELT SO STRONGLY THAT THIS WAS A POOR... |
| 00:52:37 |
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ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THIS ALSO HIGHLIGHTS ANOTHER REPUBLICAN FAILURE. THAT IS THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS,... |
| 00:53:17 |
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YEAH. BILL, WE HAVE A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT. UNFORTUNATELY, I'D LOVE TO LINGER LONGER OVER THE FAILURE... |
| 00:53:34 |
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WELL, I'M KNOWN FOR A SCORCHED EARTH CRITICISM IN MY BOOKS. BUT I TRY TO BALANCE THAT BY PRESENTING... |
| 00:54:07 |
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AN ICON? |
| 00:54:08 |
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YES. ANDY MARSHALL AND THEIR JOB IS BASICALLY TO PRESENT FUTURE ASSESSMENTS AND POLICY PROSCRIPTIONS.... |
| 00:54:52 |
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HOW ABOUT THE STATE DEPARTMENT? |
| 00:54:54 |
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THE STATE DEPARTMENT NEEDS TO BE RADICALLY REFORMED. AGAIN, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT FOR BETTER OR FOR... |
| 00:55:27 |
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HOW WOULD YOU DEFINE SOFT POWER? |
| 00:55:29 |
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ANYTHING FROM ECONOMIC POWER. IT WOULD BE DIPLOMATIC POWER. IT WOULD BE INTELLIGENCE POWER. AND ANYTHING... |
| 00:55:36 |
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POLITICAL WARFARE? |
| 00:55:37 |
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POLITICAL WARFARE. ANYTHING SHORT OF MILITARY ACTION AND AGAIN, WE HEAR THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.... |
| 00:56:06 |
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AS LONG AS THE NATURE OF THE PERSONNEL ADMINISTERING WHATEVER THE MISSION MIGHT BE AND I AGREE THAT... |
| 00:56:24 |
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WELL, I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE BETTER TRAINING AND A BETTER UNDERSTANDING. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE EXTRAORDINARY... |
| 00:57:13 |
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AND VERY QUICKLY. YOU HAVE A CAUTIONARY NOTE ABOUT IDENTIFYING THOSE WHO ARE WORKING FOR FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS... |
| 00:57:24 |
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IN WHAT SENSE? |
| 00:57:25 |
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WELL, I THINK ONE OF YOUR OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS, AS I RECALL, WAS TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU... |
| 00:57:36 |
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THERE NEEDS TO BE NEW GUIDELINES FOR FORMER OFFICIALS, MANY OF WHOM ARE IMMEDIATELY HIRED BY FOREIGN... |
| 00:58:04 |
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BILL, WE COULD GO ON AND THANK YOU FOR SPENDING TIME |
NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
