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| TIME | SPEAKER | TEXT |
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| 00:00:45 |
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THIS HEARING WILL COME TO ORDER. TODAY'S HEARING WILL BEGIN THE SUBCOMMITTEE'S INVESTIGATION ABOUT... |
| 00:03:34 |
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THIS WAS THE SUBJECT OF OVER 60 HEARINGS, MARKUPS AND BRIEFINGS. THIS IS A MEMORANDUM THAT HAS LONG... |
| 00:09:49 |
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WE OUGHT TO BE REASONABLE ABOUT THIS. I THINK THERE ARE VERY FEW PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THAT TORTURE... |
| 00:10:50 |
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I WISH THIS WAS AN ACADEMIC DISCUSSION BUT UNFORTUNATELY WE LIVE IN A POST 91 WORLD. OSAMA BIN LADEN... |
| 00:11:56 |
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I YIELD FOR AN OPENING STATEMENT, THE GENTLEMAN FROM MICHIGAN. |
| 00:12:00 |
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THANK YOU. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT INVESTIGATION AND HEARING AND THESE ARE AREAS THAT WE HAVE NOT GONE... |
| 00:18:25 |
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I WOULD ASK THE OTHER MEMBERS TO PUT THEIR SUGGESTIONS IN FOR THE RECORD. |
| 00:18:36 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN? |
| 00:18:44 |
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THIS IS PROVIDED THAT THE MEMBER IS PRESENT. MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT PRESENT WILL BE RECOGNIZED AFTER OTHER... |
| 00:19:00 |
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WE WOULD ASK THAT THE REGULAR ORDER BE FOLLOWED. WE ARE DISAGREEING WITH THE UNANIMOUS CONSENT. |
| 00:19:20 |
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THE OBJECTION IS NOT TIMELY. |
| 00:19:22 |
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IT WAS NOT APPROVED. IT WAS NOT APPROVED. WE SOUGHT RECOGNITION. |
| 00:19:27 |
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LET ME SAY THE FOLLOWING. LET ME SAY THE FOLLOWING. WE HAVE A PANEL OF WITNESSES AND WE HAVE A BUSY... |
| 00:20:07 |
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I APPRECIATE THIS BUT THE RULES OF THE HOUSE, WANT TO GO BEYOND YOUR OPENING STATEMENT PROVIDES FOR... |
| 00:20:26 |
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I WILL MOVE THAT OPENING STATEMENTS BE DISPENSED WITH. |
| 00:20:35 |
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I OBJECT TO THAT. IN ASKING FOR A RECORDED VOTE. PERHAPS YOU SHOULD CHECK FOR THE RULES OF THE HOUSE.... |
| 00:20:54 |
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WE ARE GETTING THEM. |
| 00:21:03 |
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THETHERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE AUDIENCE TO DEMAND THIS. WE ARE INFORMED THAT IT IS SUBJECT TO A MOTION.... |
| 00:21:33 |
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ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE. |
| 00:21:44 |
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HELL, NO. I CALL FOR A VOTE. |
| 00:21:50 |
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WILL HAVE THEM CALL FOR A VOTE. |
| 00:22:15 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN? MR. CHAIRMAN VOTES AYE, MR. ELLISON? MR. CONYERS? MR. SCOTT? MR. FRANKS? MR. KING?... |
| 00:23:37 |
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IS HE A VOTING MEMBER? THE RANKING MEMBER WOULD HAVE BEEN A DODI MEMBER THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN HERE.... |
| 00:24:01 |
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THAT IS NOT A PARLIAMENTARY DECISION. IT IS A SIMPLE RULES. I WILL GIVE YOU A COPY. |
| 00:24:08 |
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I DO NOT INTERPRET IT THAT WAY. |
| 00:24:16 |
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THE DALLAS RESERVATION IS NOTED. WE WILL GET TO OUR WITNESSES. -- THE GENTLEMAN'S RESERVATION IS NOTED.... |
| 00:28:42 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. IT A PLEDGE -- IS A PLEASURE TO BE HERE. IT APPEARS THAT OUR PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING... |
| 00:33:32 |
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THANK YOU. I NOTE BALKANIZE -- I NOW RECOGNIZE THE NEXT WITNESS FOR 5 MINUTES. |
| 00:33:52 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN, I WILL LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME TO TESTIFY. I AM A LAW PROFESSOR WHO SPECIALIZES... |
| 00:39:07 |
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I NOW RECOGNIZE MISS CONE FOR 5 MINUTES. THANK YOU. IT IS AN HONOR AND PRIVILEGE TO TESTIFY. WHAT... |
| 00:46:06 |
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THANK YOU. |
| 00:46:14 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN, IT IS MY PRIVILEGE AND HONOR TO APPEAR BEFORE THIS COMMITTEE TO ADDRESS YOUR QUESTIONS... |
| 00:54:33 |
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I THANK YOU AND THE OTHER WITNESSES. THE CHAIR RECOGNIZES MYSELF FOR FIVE MINUTES FOR THE PURPOSES... |
| 00:54:45 |
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YOU WROTE ABOUT THE LEGALITY OF THE POLICIES INCLUDING ALBERTA GONZALES AND ADDINGTON IT IT SHOWED... |
| 00:55:07 |
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A FEW EXAMPLES WOULD BE THE MEMOS THAT HE USED. THEY MAKE AN EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM OF EXECUTIVE POWER... |
| 00:57:05 |
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HE SAID IT WOULD BE A DRAMATIC MISTAKE TO SAY THEY ARE BENDING THE FUSE BECAUSE THEY HAVE THIS OWN... |
| 00:57:20 |
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FOR A FEW REASONS. AFTER THE MEMO WAS WITHDRAWN AND THE OTHER WAS SUBSTITUTED, IT SAID THAT ALL OF... |
| 01:01:09 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. PROFESSOR, I WAS A BIT MOVED BY YOUR COMMENTS RELATING TO THE LAWYERS. I... |
| 01:02:27 |
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YES, THE MAIN POINT THAT I WOULD MAKE IS THAT "SEVERE PAIN" IS NOT A TECHNICAL LEAD -- NOT A TECHNICAL... |
| 01:02:47 |
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I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WOULD SAY IS IT IS THE KIND OF PAIN THAT ALL OF US WOULD RECOGNIZE... |
| 01:03:40 |
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IF THAT'S WHY BE ASKING YOU TO DEFINE IT. MRS. COHEN, TO RESPOND IN RELATION TO WATERBOARDING AND... |
| 01:05:01 |
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THANK YOU, MR. FRANKS FOR THAT QUESTION. I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE TORTURING OUR OWN SOLDIERS OR ... |
| 01:06:15 |
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I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS. I HAVE TO SAY THAT TO THINK THAT TERRORISTS COMMITTED THE DESTRUCTION... |
| 01:06:38 |
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VERY BRIEFLY. I CERTAINLY DO NOT AGREE WITH THE LATEST STATEMENT. IT IS A MORAL COP OUT TO ARGUE ... |
| 01:08:57 |
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BANK. TIME HAS EXPIRED. I RECOGNIZE THE DISTINGUISHED COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN, MR. CONYERS. |
| 01:09:05 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. I WANT TO COMMEND THE WITNESSES. THIS IS AN EXCELLENT EXAMINATION OF TORTURE,... |
| 01:10:18 |
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CHAIRMAN CONYERS, I APPRECIATE THE QUESTION. I WOULD LIKE TO REFLECT ON IT AND MAY SUBMIT SOMETHING... |
| 01:10:40 |
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LET'S CONTINUE TO WORK ON THIS TOGETHER. YOU ARE A FREQUENT WITNESS ANY WAY. |
| 01:10:45 |
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THANK YOU. |
| 01:10:50 |
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SIR, WE WELCOME YOU AGAIN HERE FROM OVERSEAS. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS -- I THINK, A VERY COMMENDABLE... |
| 01:11:25 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION. |
| 01:11:30 |
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WOULD YOU TURN ON A MICROPHONE, PLEASE? |
| 01:11:34 |
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THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION. I THINK THE COUNTRY FINDS ITSELF AT AN IMPORTANT MOMENT BECAUSE I THINK... |
| 01:14:56 |
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WE HAVE NOT HARDLY TOUCHED UPON ANY CONCLUSION. THE WHOLE NOTION OF THE HOSTILITY TOWARD INTERNATIONAL... |
| 01:16:17 |
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I THANK THE GENTLEMAN. THE CHAIR NOW RECOGNIZES THE GENTLEMAN FROM INDIANA APPEARED |
| 01:16:22 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. I WANT TO THANK ALL OF OUR WITNESSES FOR YOUR TESTIMONY. MR. RIFKIN, A QUICK... |
| 01:17:29 |
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THERE IS A DEGREE OF IRONY. THERE MAY BE LESS FORMS OF COERCION, PARTICULARLY PSYCHOLOGICAL COERCION,... |
| 01:18:41 |
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PROFESSOR SANZA, WE APPREC -- PROFESSOR SANDS, I APPRECIATE YOUR TESTIMONY, WHETHER OR NOT I AGREE.... |
| 01:20:26 |
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THANK YOU, SIR. I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE THAT QUESTION. |
| 01:20:33 |
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YOUR MICROPHONE, PLEASE. |
| 01:20:34 |
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THAT QUESTION SEEMS TO GO TO THE HEART OF MANY OF THE ISSUES WE'RE DISCUSSING. AND NOT SURE HOW OPRAH... |
| 01:24:28 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN, COULD I LET MR. RIFKIN RESPOND TO THAT AS WELL. |
| 01:24:31 |
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THANK YOU. I DON'T DOUBT THE PROFESSORS SINCERITY, BUT I SPENT A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME WITH BRITISH... |
| 01:25:38 |
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THE GENTLEMAN'S TIME HAS LONG EXPIRED. THE GENTLEMAN FROM ALABAMA IS RECOGNIZED FOR FIVE MINUTES. |
| 01:25:43 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. MR. RIFKIN, LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU. I READ THE OP-ED PIECE THAT YOU WROTE... |
| 01:26:12 |
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IT IS A COMPLICATED QUESTION, CONGRESSMAN DAVIS, BASICALLY THE POSITION OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WAS... |
| 01:26:42 |
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LET ME TAKE UP THAT LOGIC AND APPLIED TO ANOTHER SCENARIO. LET'S SAY THAT HEZBOLLAH, AND KNOWN TERRORIST... |
| 01:27:28 |
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THERE ARE TWO ANSWERS TO THAT, CONGRESSMAN. THE LEGAL ANSWER IS THIS, IF YOU ARE A LOCAL COMBATANT,... |
| 01:27:51 |
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DO YOU THINK HEZBOLLAH WOULD ADOPT THAT INTERPRETATION? OR THAT AL QAEDA WOULD ADOPT THAT INTERPRETATION?... |
| 01:27:58 |
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NO, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. I DON'T MEAN TO SOUND GLIB, BUT LET ME SUGGEST THIS. GIVEN THE... |
| 01:28:34 |
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THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION. MAYBE I SHOULD PUT IT DIFFERENTLY. DOES THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT APPLIED... |
| 01:28:48 |
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THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S POSITION AS I AM UNDERSTAND IT IS FAIRLY COMPLEX. THEY BELIEVE IT ESTATE OF... |
| 01:29:06 |
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TO ORDER IN ISRAEL IS ILLEGAL. HOWEVER, ISRAELIS IN A CORPORATE CIRCUMSTANCES TO USE STRESS TECHNIQUES... |
| 01:29:15 |
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LET ME STOP YOU. YOU'RE DOING WHAT WITNESSES LIKE TO DO WHICH IS TALKING FAST SO I CAN'T GET A TIMON.... |
| 01:30:22 |
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I DO SEE IT. IT IS A. THAT IS ALSO MADE IN RELATION TO THE UNITED KINGDOM. WE HAVE HAD TERRORIST... |
| 01:31:27 |
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THE CHAIR WILL INDULGE ME JUST ONE LAST HYPOTHETICAL TO YOU. SHOULD THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES... |
| 01:31:45 |
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AND THE CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES? |
| 01:31:47 |
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HYPOTHETICALLY, SHOULD THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. ISSUED A PARDON FOR LEAVES OFFICE TO MEMBERS OF HIS... |
| 01:31:58 |
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I'VE NOT CONSIDER THIS QUESTION CAREFULLY. I WOULD IMAGINE THERE WOULD BE SOME REASONS TO DO SO. ... |
| 01:32:39 |
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NO. I'VE NOT STUDY THE QUESTION IN DETAIL. PRESIDENT CARTER ISSUED A BLANKET PARDON TO THE VIETNAM... |
| 01:33:40 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. I WILL TRY TO PICK UP WHAT I WOULDN'T PUT IN AN OPENING STATEMENT INTO MY... |
| 01:34:17 |
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INCE THEY SEEM TO BE REPENTANT BY NOW DENYING THAT IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY BUT RATHER THE RESPONSIBILITY... |
| 01:34:26 |
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I UNDERSTAND. BEFORE GOING TO USE BROAD CONSPIRACY COLUMNS TO BE PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT UNDER DIRECT... |
| 01:35:24 |
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I AGREE. MA'AM, I WILL SWITCH TO YOU FOR A MOMENT. I THINK WE MAY GAIN -- OR I MAY GAIN SOME INSIGHT... |
| 01:35:51 |
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YOU ALSO COME FOR MY PART OF THE COUNTRY AS WELL. |
| 01:35:54 |
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I DO WANT TO GET THIS RIGHT. ALTHOUGH I OPENED VERY CLEARLY WITH THE IDEA THAT WE HAVE TO MOVE ON,... |
| 01:36:46 |
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TO LIE TO THEM? |
| 01:36:49 |
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TO TELL THEM THINGS THAT WOULD CAUSE THEM TO SPILL THE BEANS BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN DISINGENUOUS IN WHAT... |
| 01:37:02 |
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IT WOULD DEPEND. IT TO SOMEONE AND SAY WE'RE GOING TO KILL YOUR WIFE, EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T INTEND... |
| 01:37:18 |
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I APPRECIATE THAT. MR. RIFKIN, YOU WATCH "LAW AND ORDER?" I DO NOT, I CONFESS. |
| 01:37:34 |
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PER EVERYONE ELSE, DO YOU THINK THAT DECEIVING PEOPLE, INCLUDING SAYING THAT YOUR PARTNER JUST GOT... |
| 01:37:46 |
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IT IS OK. IF THERE'S A SMALL RANGE OF DECEPTIVE STATEMENTS- STATEMENTS- -- THE SUPREME |
| 01:38:00 |
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WITH THE GENTLEMAN YIELD? THE SUPREME COURT HAS INDEED RULED THAT A DECEIVING QUESTION SUCH AS SAYING... |
| 01:38:21 |
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I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE STAY TO THE BASIC CONCEPT THAT WE DO GET CONFESSIONS OUT OF PRISONERS... |
| 01:39:20 |
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THIS IS MY FAVORITE HYPOTHETICAL. BECAUSE THE CRITICS DO NOT WANT ANY FORM OF COERCION, PSYCHOLOGICAL... |
| 01:40:07 |
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WE KNOW IT'S BEEN HELD CONSTITUTIONAL WITHIN SOME OF THESE GUIDELINES. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE HOW THEY... |
| 01:40:22 |
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OK, YES, I AGREE WITH WHAT THE OTHER WITNESSES HAVE SAID. LIES THAT AMOUNT TO DEATH THREATS OR THREATS... |
| 01:41:07 |
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THESE ARE TECHNIQUES WIDELY USED IN BRITAIN. |
| 01:41:10 |
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THEY ARE. I THINK, RIGHT IN SAYING THAT THE U.S. FIELD MANUAL PERMITS THIS ANDTECHNIQUE. IT GOVERNS... |
| 01:43:01 |
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YOU SUGGESTED, HOPEFULLY, TO THAT HEAD OF STATE, THAT HE KNOCKED BELIEVE THE LAWYER. |
| 01:43:08 |
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YOUR TIME HAS EXPIRED. THE GENTLEMAN FROM MINNESOTA IS RECOGNIZED FOR FIVE MINUTES. |
| 01:43:12 |
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PROFESSOR, DOES TORTURE WORK? |
| 01:43:18 |
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THAT IS A VERY GENERAL QUESTION. |
| 01:43:21 |
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OF COURSE, IT IS. |
| 01:43:25 |
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I HAVE SPOKEN -- I HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY ENGAGED IN TORTURE, SO I HAVE NO FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE OF... |
| 01:44:18 |
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HERE'S MY QUESTION, IF YOU SAY THAT -- LET'S ASSUME FOR JUST A BRIEF MOMENT THAT SOME THINGS A PERSON... |
| 01:44:45 |
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YOU CANNOT. THERE'S NO WAY TO DO IT. THE EXPERIENCE WITH KHALID SHAIKH MOHAMMED, WHO OWNED UP TO ... |
| 01:45:33 |
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MR. RIVKIN, A GUESS I ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION, YOU'D PROBABLY SAY SOMETIMES IT WORKS. AND SO, MY... |
| 01:46:09 |
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I AM UNDERSTAND BERT I NEED YOU TO ANSWER MY QUESTION. HOW DO YOU DETERMINE WHICH IS RIGHT AND... |
| 01:46:16 |
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IN MOST SITUATIONS WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO BACK AND CROSS-EXAMINE. IF THE PERSON SAYS THE SAME... |
| 01:46:31 |
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CROSS-EXAMINE, BUT THAT DEMAND CHECK THE FACTS? |
| 01:46:36 |
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DESPERATE PEOPLE SOMETIMES TELL YOU YOU CAN LEARN AS MUCH FROM A PERSON LYING AS A PERSON TELLING... |
| 01:46:48 |
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LET'S IMAGINE YOU GET AN ANSWER AND THE ANSWER IS FALSE. THE CULTURE BELIEVES THAT -- LET'S SAY THE... |
| 01:47:19 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. |
| 01:47:22 |
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DOES THAT TAKE TIME? DOES IT TAKE MONEY? |
| 01:47:24 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. YOU CAN ALWAYS HAVE FALSE LEADS IN LIFE. |
| 01:47:29 |
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CAN YOU GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A TRUE TICKING TIME BOMB SITUATION, A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE IN WHICH THERE... |
| 01:47:51 |
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YES, ALTHOUGH I'M AT A DISADVANTAGE BECAUSE I PERSONALLY DO NOT HAVE A COMPLETE TRUTH. BUT THERE'S... |
| 01:48:13 |
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THE ARGUES COLLEGIATE MAHOMET IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF SEPTEMBER 11 OR AS CLOSE AS YOU COULD GET TO... |
| 01:48:44 |
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VERY GENEROUS OF YOU, CONGRESSMAN. THREE OR FOUR HOURS. THE VIEW OF THE ADMINISTRATION IS THAT SOMEBODY... |
| 01:49:03 |
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THANK YOU, MR. RIFKIN. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THE OTHER PANELISTS IF THEY KNOW OF ANOTHER TICKING TIMEBOMB... |
| 01:49:15 |
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I KNOW OF ONE. IT'S ON THE SHOW "24." |
| 01:49:22 |
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[LAUGHTER] |
| 01:49:28 |
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I KNOW OF NONE. AND NOT EVEN SEEN THAT TELEVISION SHOW. |
| 01:49:33 |
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I'VE BEEN TRYING TO CHASE DOWN TICKING TIME BOMB CASES FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS. THERE'S BEEN A COUPLE... |
| 01:50:58 |
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THE TIME OF THE GENTLEMAN HAS EXPIRED. THE CHAIR RECOGNIZES THE GENTLEMAN FROM IOWA FOR FIVE MINUTES.... |
| 01:51:04 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. I LIKE TO THANK THE WITNESSES FOR THEIR TESTIMONY. WE'VE GOTTEN A LOT OF... |
| 01:53:21 |
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I'M AFRAID I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON MILITARY HISTORY. I'M NOT ABLE TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION BEYOND A NUMBER... |
| 01:54:21 |
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IN THE INTEREST OF TIME, I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE BREATH OF THIS IS NOT BROAD CRITICISM, IT... |
| 01:54:29 |
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I BELIEVE IT IS NARROW, BUT ITS NARROWNESS DOES NOT DIMINISH ITS IMPORTANCE. |
| 01:54:35 |
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I WILL CONCEDE THAT POINT TO YOU. THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE. LET'S TURN TO MRS. COHN. YOU HAVE ADVOCATED... |
| 01:55:34 |
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THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT ONCE A DOM COZAN WAS IN CUSTODY AFTER THE... |
| 01:56:18 |
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THE STATEMENTS THE CONGRESSMAN MENTIONED, HIMSELF, ARE NOT VERIFIABLE. GIVEN INFORMATION COMING FROM... |
| 01:57:10 |
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IT FOCUSES BACK ON THE STATEMENT MADE BY THE PROFESSOR. AS ILLUSTRATED, THE IRA -- BY THE WAY, I AGREE... |
| 01:58:18 |
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I WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO SHARE WITH THE COMMITTEE. THE VIEWS OF THE BRITISH MILITARY... |
| 01:58:36 |
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DOES YOUR TESTIMONY EXTEND THE OUTRAGE? |
| 01:58:38 |
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MR. RIVKIN SAID HE DID NOT BELIEVE THE LAWYERS INVOLVED IN THE U.K. TECHNIQUE WERE EVER BROUGHT BEFORE... |
| 01:59:26 |
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I WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND MY TIME SLIGHTLY TO ALLOW MR. RIVKIN TO ANSWER. |
| 01:59:30 |
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I WANT THE RECORD TO SHOW THAT NONE OF THE SENIOR BRITISH OFFICIALS WERE PROSECUTED IN CONNECTION... |
NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
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