Establishment of Religion Clause Oral Arguments, Part 2

Dec 4, 2007

U.S. Court of Appeals | Ninth Circuit

The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco heard oral arguments in two cases on the use of God-related language. In the second case, the Court reviewed a district court's ruling in Newdow v. Carey in which the court permanently prohibited a local school district from leading students in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. .. Read More
The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco heard oral arguments in two cases on the use of God-related language. In the second case, the Court reviewed a district court's ruling in Newdow v. Carey in which the court permanently prohibited a local school district from leading students in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. Sacramento physician, aethist, and lawyer Michael Newdow had argued that public schools using the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. He argued that while reciting the pledge is voluntary, it becomes unconstitutional when students who do not believe in God are forced to hear it.

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TRANSCRIPT

TIME SPEAKER TEXT
00:00:33 none THIS IS C-SPAN'S "AMERICA AND THE COURTS." MICHAEL NEW DELL SEEKS TO HAVE "AND DESIGNED" MOVE FROM...
00:01:11 Unidentified Speaker AND HILLAH ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES DID WE WOULD LIKE TO COLLECTIVELY RESERVE SIX MINUTES FOR...
00:01:24 Unidentified Speaker WHOM THERE ARE GOING TO TAKE EIGHT MINUTES EACH?
00:01:26 Unidentified Speaker THAT IS CORRECT. THE VOLUNTARY PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE DOES NOT BALL -- BY LATE. I WOULD LIKE TO AGAIN BY...
00:06:31 Unidentified Speaker YOU HAVE GONE WITHOUT A QUESTION SO FAR. WHAT ARE YOU GET TO THE OTHER POINT IN YOUR ARGUMENT.
00:06:41 Unidentified Speaker ASSUMING YOU ARE CORRECT, AND IT IS NOT BINDING, THE BELIEVE THAT HAS FIRST CHOICE OF VALUE?
00:06:48 Unidentified Speaker I DO NOT THINK IT DOES, JUDGE REINHARDT. THAT BRINGS ME TO THE MERITS OF THE PRIOR DECISION. THE...
00:07:07 Unidentified Speaker AS A MATTER OF GENERAL PRINCIPLE AND LEGAL DOCTRINE, IF AN OPINION IS VACATED, ON THE GROUNDS THAT...
00:07:23 Unidentified Speaker THE VACATED OPINION?
00:07:27 Unidentified Speaker I AM ASSUMING IT IS NOT BINDING.
00:07:30 Unidentified Speaker CORRECT, IT COULD BE CONSULTED FOR WHAT EVERY PERSUASIVE VALUE THAT IT HAS OR DOES NOT HAVE JUST AS...
00:07:51 Unidentified Speaker VACATED OPINIONS HAVE ZERO PRESIDENTIAL VALUE. -- PRECEDENTIAL VALUE I THINK THAT WOULD BE AKIN TO...
00:09:05 Unidentified Speaker LET ME JUST WHEN YOU ARE ABOUT IT -- LET ME JUST WARN YOU, YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENCROACH ON YOUR COLLEAGUES...
00:09:15 Unidentified Speaker LET ME JUST SAY THAT STUDENTS IN CIVICS CLASS COULD BE ENCOURAGED THE RECITATION OF THE SCENE OF THE...
00:10:06 Unidentified Speaker ISN'T ONE OF THE ISSUES ONE OF COERCION? CHILDREN WHO FEEL COERCED TO RECITE "UNDERDONE?" THE THE...
00:10:36 Unidentified Speaker WHAT, AND LEE, IS THE USE OF A ARADHANA --
00:10:49 Unidentified Speaker IF YOU THINK OF IT, LEE DOES NOT HAVE ANY BEARING ON THE ISSUE OF WHAT IS OR IS NOT A PRAYER. IT HAS...
00:11:24 Unidentified Speaker IT HAS BEEN VALIDATED BY 200 YEARS OF UNBROKEN TRADITION.
00:11:31 Unidentified Speaker SO LEE AS A GRADUATION CEREMONY IS AN IMPORTANT EVENT TO STUDENTS. BUT ARE THE SAME PERIOD ABSOLUTELY....
00:12:30 Unidentified Speaker AT THE END OF THE INDICATION, THE RABBI IS GIVING THANKS TO GOD. -- AT THE END OF THE INVOCATION,...
00:13:09 Unidentified Speaker I WILL TRY YOUR NEXT CO- COUNSEL ON THIS.
00:13:11 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU.
00:13:17 Unidentified Speaker GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. IT MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT. MY NAME IS TERRANCE CASSIDY. THIS MORNING, WE...
00:14:32 Unidentified Speaker IN GENERAL, WHEN A DECISION IS VACATED FOR LACK OF STANDING, IT HAS NO VALUE?
00:14:37 Unidentified Speaker CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. IT BECOMES A NULLITY.
00:14:49 Unidentified Speaker ITH RESPECT TO ALLOWING DAILY RECITATION OF THE PLEDGE, WE RESPECTFULLY SUBMIT THAT WHILE THERE IS...
00:15:10 Unidentified Speaker LET ME JUST ASK YOU A QUESTION. EVEN IF WE ASSUME THAT RECITING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE IS A PATRIOTIC...
00:15:29 Unidentified Speaker WHILE THERE IS SOME RELIGIOUS CONTENT AND THE PLEDGE, WE HAVE TO TAKE THE OVERALL CONTEXT. THAT IS...
00:16:38 Unidentified Speaker WOULD IT BE ANY LESS PATRIOTIC KEYWORDS UNDERGONE WERE REMOVED?
00:16:43 Unidentified Speaker AND NOT NECESSARILY. WE WOULD BE LEAVING OUT AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS, AND THAT...
00:17:51 Unidentified Speaker WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A MORE MODERNIZED VERSION OF THE PLEDGE, WHICH WE BELIEVE, OVER THE PAST 50 YEARS,...
00:18:45 Unidentified Speaker I AM NOT QUITE SURE IF I UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT IS. IF YOU DID NOT HAVE UNDERGONE IN THERE, YOU WOULD...
00:19:15 Unidentified Speaker I SUPPOSE I WOULD ANSWER IT IS SLIGHT. EXPOSURE TO THE FACT THAT GOD HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED AS PART OF...
00:19:54 Unidentified Speaker IS A COERCIVE IF YOU'RE REQUIRED TO STAND THERE AND BEAT SILENT AND THE SINGLED OUT AS AN ATHEIST....
00:20:05 Unidentified Speaker I THINK NOT. WE KNOW NOW FROM THE ELK GROVE DECISION THAT THIS IS A PATRIOTIC EXERCISE AND NOT A CAREER....
00:20:21 Unidentified Speaker HOW DO WE KNOW THAT?
00:20:28 Unidentified Speaker JUSTICE STEVENS -- YOU TELL US THAT THERE IS NO STANDING, THAT IT DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING.
00:20:38 Unidentified Speaker PERHAPS FOR LOWER COURTS --
00:20:41 Unidentified Speaker IT THERE IS NO STANDING, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY ANNOUNCED A RULE OF LAW WHEN THERE WAS NO STANDING...
00:20:50 Unidentified Speaker I BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN WHEN THEY ANNOUNCE WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS IMPORTANT TO THE DECISION OF THE CASE....
00:20:57 Unidentified Speaker HUCKABEE IMPORTANT TO THE QUESTION IN STANDING?
00:20:59 Unidentified Speaker MAYBE THIS PERSUASIVE.
00:21:04 Unidentified Speaker I BELIEVE IT IS PERSUASIVE BUT THIS COURT -- BASED ON COUNTING ANALYSIS BY THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT IN...
00:22:08 Unidentified Speaker MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT.
00:22:14 Unidentified Speaker IS USUALLY MINUTES, THE WILL BE ONE MINUTE LEFT. -- IF YOU USE YOUR FULL EIGHT MINUTES, THERE WILL...
00:22:31 Unidentified Speaker WHAT DOES NOT ADD TO THE PATRIOTIC EXERCISES, AND SO FORTH. THERE IS A LONG ANSWER TO A SHORT QUESTION....
00:24:39 Unidentified Speaker HE WAS DESCRIBED AS AN IGNOBLE ESSENCE.
00:24:42 Unidentified Speaker WAS THAT A RELIGIOUS STORY NONRELIGIOUS GOT. NONRELIGIOU-- NONRELIGIOUS GUIOD.
00:25:01 Unidentified Speaker THE WANT TO EMBARK FOR COLIFORM THE PHILOSOPHERS GONE BECAUSE HE CAN BE ARGUED TO BE KNOWN BY REASON...
00:25:42 Unidentified Speaker GOD IS NOT A RELIGIOUS FIGURE?
00:25:44 Unidentified Speaker OF THE PHILOSOPHERS GOT WAS ALL THERE WAS. MAY 12 OF 1776, BEFORE THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE,...
00:26:33 Unidentified Speaker WHAT IS A PHILOSOPHERS' GUY? -- PHILOSOPHERS' GOD? NOTHING THAT YOU WANT A GOD TO BE. THERE ARE NO...
00:27:10 Unidentified Speaker THE CREATOR? WHAT IS A CREATOR? THE CREATOR CREATED EVERYTHING. BY THE SHAPE OF CREATION, WE CAN ...
00:27:34 Unidentified Speaker IF THE WORLD JUST EVOLVED NATURALLY, AND BECAME FROM FISH, IT JUST HAPPENED TO THE FORCES OF SCIENCE...
00:27:58 Unidentified Speaker THE PHILOSOPHERS GOT WOULD BE ALIVE AND WELL AND LIVING IN REVOLUTION.
00:28:03 Unidentified Speaker YOU'RE SAYING THAT BECAUSE THE UNIVERSE EXISTS, SOMETHING CAUSE IT TO EXIST. YOU CAN GIVE THAT THE...
00:28:26 Unidentified Speaker THE PLANTSETS EXPLODED, GASES CAME, THE EARTH EVOLVED FROM ALL THESE GASES, AND THEN WE WENT THROUGH...
00:28:49 Unidentified Speaker YOUR HONOR, HOWEVER ANY INDIVIDUAL BELIEVES ABOUT THE PHILOSOPHERS GOT, THE FACT REMAINS OF THE PHILOSOPHERS...
00:29:10 Unidentified Speaker SHIRT. -- MAY ASK YOU A QUESTION?
00:29:16 Unidentified Speaker SURE. DOES A REASONABLE OBJECTIVE OBSERVER HAVE AMBIGUOUS VIEW OF THE USE OF THE LORD GOD REFER TO...
00:29:57 Unidentified Speaker IT IS DEEPLY STEEPED IN THE SUPREME COURT.
00:30:07 Unidentified Speaker A SEVEN YEAR-OLD CHILD IS NOT AN OBJECTIVE OBSERVER. THE SEVEN MURALS CHILD PENCE ARE. -- THE SEVEN...
00:31:21 Unidentified Speaker WHEN YOU PUT "UNDER GOD" IN A PLEDGE, WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FLOOR WAS THAT WE WERE FACING A GODLESS...
00:33:18 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU.
00:33:31 Unidentified Speaker THE SUPREME COURT STATED THAT THE CONSTITUTIONAL FREEDOMS ARE NOWHERE MORE VITAL THAN THE COMMUNITY...
00:34:06 Unidentified Speaker WE HAVE ONE REMAINING PLANTER. THE PARENTS AFFIDAVIT, AS I REMEMBER IT, WAS THAT THE CHILD WAS BEING...
00:35:23 Unidentified Speaker I GUESS THAT HIS BOARD DRESS THE SHIP ON MY PART. -- I GUESS THAT WAS A BAD DRAFTSMANSHIP ON MY PART....
00:35:41 Unidentified Speaker COMPULSION IS THAT YOU HAVE TO SAY THE PLEDGE OR YOU GET FINED $50. COERCION IS IS WHAT OCCURS IN...
00:36:10 Unidentified Speaker OF THE OTHERS SAID THIS WAS NOT A COERCIVE. THE PLEDGE POLICY -- TO JUSTICE THOMAS ALSO STATED THAT...
00:36:39 Unidentified Speaker WHAT ABOUT OAK GROVE AND AT LUNCHLYNCH. THE CITY DOES NOT VIOLATE THE ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE IN BOTH...
00:36:52 Unidentified Speaker OF THE SUPREME COURT DID NOT RULE ON IT IN ELK GROVE. IN LYNCH, THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY PORTION WHATSOEVER....
00:37:05 Unidentified Speaker YOU HAVE A LITTLE FOURTH GRADER AND EVERYONE ELSE SAYS IT AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO SAY IT. WE HAVE THE...
00:37:52 Unidentified Speaker I BELIEVE THERE WAS A REFERENCE IN THE ELK GROVE CASE IN WHICH THERE IS SOCIAL SCIENCE DATA THAT SHOWS...
00:38:33 Unidentified Speaker FIRST OF ALL, THERE WERE SPECIFIC ALLEGATIONS -- ACTUALLY, PROOF, OF THE HARASSMENT OF CHILDREN BECAUSE...
00:39:03 Unidentified Speaker BUT THE GOVERNMENT HAS SAID THAT THERE IS A STIGMATIC INJURY THAT CAN BE AFFECTED. AS A MATTER OF...
00:39:21 Unidentified Speaker BUT THE HARM IS BY THE STUDENT.
00:39:27 Unidentified Speaker HAT IS A CAUSAL CONCLUSION DRAWN BY THE EVIDENCE.
00:39:32 Unidentified Speaker IS THERE ANY QUESTION AT THIS POINT IN OUR HISTORY THAT THE GRADUATING STUDENTS WERE HARMED BY HAVING...
00:40:21 Unidentified Speaker I AGREE, SIR.
00:40:27 Unidentified Speaker THAT IS CALLED A LIFELINE.
00:40:35 Unidentified Speaker AS FAR AS A PHILOSOPHY THAT IS BEFORE ME, CONCEPTS CONCERNING GOD DO NOT SHARE THAT SIMPLY BECAUSE...
00:41:23 Unidentified Speaker WHEN YOU START MENTIONING STATISTICS, MY MIND GOES TO STATISTICS. WHAT IS THE LINEUP OF MENTIONS ...
00:41:45 Unidentified Speaker I PROBABLY HAVE RUN THAT IN THE PAST.
00:41:49 Unidentified Speaker I THINK IT IS 14 TO NOTHING.
00:41:54 Unidentified Speaker THEY SAY THAT IF YOU DO WHAT WE SAVE, THEN THE PLEDGE WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
00:41:58 Unidentified Speaker AND NOT NECESSARILY. TALKING ABOUT THE CONTEXT OF THE CASES, THEY FOUND THE PLEDGE TO BE CONSTITUTIONALLY...
00:42:57 Unidentified Speaker WHEN THE JUSTICE REFERRED TO THE PLEDGE, HE SAID THIS IS A DICTUM ABOUT DICICTA. HE SAID THAT WHILE...
00:45:08 Unidentified Speaker CAN YOU GIVE ME THE NAMES OF THE CASES THAT SAID THAT THE ARGUMENT OF YOUR COMMENT ABOUT THE PHILOSOPHICAL...
00:45:21 Unidentified Speaker I'M SORRY?
00:45:28 Unidentified Speaker YOU SAID THERE WERE CASES WHERE THEY SAID THERE WAS NOT A SCIENTIFIC OR PHILOSOPHICAL.
00:45:34 Unidentified Speaker I MISS THAT, I AM SORRY. I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY. ALL I KNOW IS THE OPPOSITE THAT GOD IS GOD. WE CONTINUE...
00:46:24 Unidentified Speaker SHE WAS ALONE ON A DECISION. THE GOVERNING EVERYTHING SHE SAID BEFORE THAT. SHE SAID THAT WHEN GOVERNMENT...
00:47:30 Unidentified Speaker THAT WAS JUSTICE BRENNAN.
00:47:36 Unidentified Speaker JUSTICE BRENNAN SAID THAT, " WHILE I'LL REMAIN UNCERTAIN, HE " HE WAS REFERRING TO SOMETHING ELSE....
00:48:21 Unidentified Speaker YOU MENTIONED THAT JUSTICE O'CONNOR WAS NO LONGER ON THE COURT, NOR IS JUSTICE BRENNAN OR BLACK. ...
00:48:36 Unidentified Speaker WHEN THIS GETS BACK TO THE SUPREME COURT, BUT IN VIEW MAY NOT BE UPHELD.
00:48:42 Unidentified Speaker WE CAN'T DISCOUNT WHAT THEY SAID IF IT WERE AN OPINION OF THE COURT.
00:48:50 Unidentified Speaker YES.
00:48:59 Unidentified Speaker THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN BRIEFED. THEY HAVE NEVER HEARD THE ARGUMENTS. I THINK THERE ARE DEFINITELY FOUR...
00:49:17 Unidentified Speaker I WOULDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO WHAT THEY SAID.
00:49:21 Unidentified Speaker HE SAID THAT OFTEN THERE ARE CONFLICTING FREEDOMS. I AGREE WITH THAT 100%. THERE IS ONE GROUP THAT...
00:50:25 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU MR. NEWDOW.
00:50:29 Unidentified Speaker WITH RESPECT TO THE LINEUP, WE HAVE THE SUPREME COURT'S STATEMENT THAT EVEN IN THE SCHOOL CONTEXT,...
00:52:40 Unidentified Speaker YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PREDICT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT IS ONE TO DO WAS TO MARQUIS I AM SAYING YOU...
00:52:55 Unidentified Speaker I AM SAYING YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE SENDISSIDENTS. IN LYNCH, THE COURT APPLIED THE LEMON TEST, AND...
00:54:05 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU.
00:54:10 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR, I WILL MAKE THIS VERY BRIEF. THE ISSUE BEFORE THIS COURT IS WHETHER THE SCHOOL...
00:55:06 Unidentified Speaker WHY YOU THINK THIS IS TEACHING PATRIOTISM? WHY DO CHILDREN HAVE TO MAKE THEIR OWN LIVES. THE ONE...
00:55:33 Unidentified Speaker THERE PLEDGING TO THE FLY. -- TO THE FLAG.
00:55:43 Unidentified Speaker THEY SPECIFICALLY PUT "UNDER GOD" IN THERE SO THAT THESE STUDENTS WOULD SAY "UNDER GOD." WEST THE...
00:56:39 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU.
00:56:53 Unidentified Speaker OU HAVE A LITTLE OVER A MINUTE. BUT HOUSE OR TO SEND HIM A RED LIGHT WAS ON.
00:57:21 Unidentified Speaker BIS IS THE GUT OFTHIS INDEED HE IS THE GUN OF THE PRESIDENT. SAYING ONE NATION UNDER GOD IS JUST...
00:57:49 Unidentified Speaker ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE CONCEPT IS BASED ON NATURAL RIGHTS?
00:57:55 Unidentified Speaker HE DID NOT HAVE A NATURAL RIGHTS ARE HUMAN WITHOUT A PHILOSOPHER GOT. -- PHILOSOPHERS' GOD. THEY ARE...
00:58:37 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU. THE COURT WILL TAKE A BRIEF RECESS BEFORE THE NEXT CASE.
00:58:51 Unidentified Speaker A LOWER COURT RULED FOR MICHAEL NEWDOW. THE MATT CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS DOES NOT YET MADE A RULING....

NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.

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