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| 00:00:02 |
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TWO HOURS, LIVE FROM THE HOOVER LIBRARY IN IOWA. FRIDAY AT 8:00 P.M. EASTERN ON C-SPAN. |
| 00:00:10 |
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THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS BEEN GIVEN NEW POWERS TO USE SPY SATELLITES FOR DOMESTIC PURPOSES.... |
| 00:00:49 |
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THE COMMITEE WILL COME TO ORDER. THE PROVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES IMPLICATION OF THE NATIONAL APPLICATIONS... |
| 00:05:28 |
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THANK YOU. I WANT TO WELCOME THE WITNESSES. I LOOK FORWARD TO THE TESTIMONY. I ALSO SHARE THE CHAIRMAN'S... |
| 00:09:23 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. LET ME INDICATE THAT WE INVITE YOU TO PARTICIPATE ON THE SECOND PANEL. THEY... |
| 00:11:24 |
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THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK ABOUT THE NATIONAL APPLICATIONS OFFICE. I WOULD LIKE TO POINT... |
| 00:18:56 |
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THANK YOU INTEREST YOUR TESTIMONY. AND NOW I RECOGNIZE OUR NEXT SPEAK TORE SUMMARIZE HIS STATEMENT... |
| 00:19:08 |
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THANK YOU. THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO YOU TODAY ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS. ... |
| 00:24:28 |
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THANK YOU FOR YOUR TESTIMONY. I NOW RECOGNIZE OUR NEXT SPEAK TORE SUMMARIZE HIS STATEMENT FOR FIVE... |
| 00:24:40 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCESS THE PRIVACY OFFICE'S EFFORTS... |
| 00:28:33 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I WOULD LIKE TO THANK THE WITNESSES FOR THEIR TESTIMONY. I'LL REMIND EACH MEMBER... |
| 00:29:24 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN, WHAT I INDICATED IS THAT WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON ISSUES OF THE CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS.... |
| 00:29:41 |
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EXCUSE ME. I DON'T -- I'M NOT CERTAIN IF WE HAVE THAT. THAT YOU -- |
| 00:29:49 |
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IF YOU DON'T, I WAS INFORMED THAT YOU DO, BUT I WILL -- I WILL VERIFY THAT AND GET BACK TO YOU, MR.... |
| 00:30:45 |
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THANK YOU, BUT I WANT YOU TO -- TO UNDERSTAND THAT IF THE AUTHORIZING COMMITTEE ASKED YOU TODAY FOR... |
| 00:31:05 |
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I THINK WE COULD PROVIDE THAT TO YOU IN SHORT ORDER. BECAUSE WE DO HAVE THE CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS.... |
| 00:31:21 |
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I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO PROVIDE THIS COMMITTEE WITH ALL OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU PROPOSE... |
| 00:31:37 |
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WE WILL PROVIDE YOU THE CONCEPT OPERATIONS TODAY. I THOUGHT YOUR COMMITTEE HAD IT. IF IT DOESN'T,... |
| 00:31:44 |
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OK. NOW, JUST TO TALK ABOUT A FEW ITEMS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS ROLL-OUT, IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT... |
| 00:32:09 |
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THE -- THE PRIVACY AND CIVIL LIBERTIES OFFICER -- |
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NOT OFFICE, THE BOARD. |
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OH, THE WHITE HOUSE BOARD. IT IS AWARE AND HAS BEEN INFORMED OF THIS PARTICULAR NATIONAL APPLICATIONS... |
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WELL, IF YOU WILL PROVIDE THIS COMMITTEE WITH ANY COMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT BOARD'S NOTIFICATION... |
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THANK YOU. WE'LL TAKE THAT FOR THE RECORD AND GET BACK TO YOU. |
| 00:32:57 |
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MR. SUTHERLAND, SINCE THIS PROGRAM IS ABOUT TO BE ROLLED OUT OCTOBER 1, CAN YOU PROVIDE THIS COMMITTEE... |
| 00:33:15 |
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YES, SIR. OUR OFFICE WAS DRAWN IN IN LATE JULY -- |
| 00:33:18 |
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OF THIS YEAR? |
| 00:33:20 |
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OF THIS YEAR, YES, SIR. OUR COLLEAGUES AT THE D.N.I. -- THE CIVIL LIBERTIES PROTECTION OFFICE WERE... |
| 00:33:41 |
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IS YOUR INVOLVEMENT AT THIS POINT -- JUST EXPLAIN YOUR INVOLVEMENT. |
| 00:33:46 |
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YES, SIR. WE HAVE BEEN EXTREMELY -- INTEGRALLY INVOLVED IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS. WE'RE WORKING ON HELPING... |
| 00:34:17 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I THINK MY CONCERN IS THAT FOR THE MOST PART, THE PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED AND PRESENTED... |
| 00:34:28 |
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I'M SORRY, SIR. AGAIN? |
| 00:34:31 |
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IF -- IF -- IF THE PROGRAM WAS INTRODUCED IN AUGUST AND YOU FIRST SAW IT IN JULY, FOR ALL INTENTS... |
| 00:34:41 |
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IF I COULD USE A FOOTBALL ANALOGY, WE WERE BROUGHT IN IN THE PRESEASON. THE REGULAR SEASON IS GOING... |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I YIELD TO THE RANKING MEMBER FOR QUESTIONS. |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TESTIMONY. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE... |
| 00:35:55 |
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CONGRESSMAN KING, THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN THE SENSE WE HAVE DONE THIS IN THE PAST FOR HOMELAND SECURITY... |
| 00:36:50 |
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HAS THIS BEEN SHARED WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT BEFORE? |
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THIS IS THE LAW ENFORCEMENT -- THERE IS A LEGAL LAW ENFORCEMENT WORKING GROUP THAT'S STANDING UP OF... |
| 00:37:28 |
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MY UNDERSTANDING WAS WHEN WE HAD THE D.C. SNIPERS FIVE YEARS AGO, WASN'T THIS PROGRAM USED THEN? |
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YES, CONGRESSMAN KING, I WAS REQUESTED BY THE DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE, GEORGE TENET, AT THE... |
| 00:38:07 |
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I'M TRYING TO DETERMINE WHERE THE CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES MAY ARISE. IS THERE ANY THERMAL IMAGEING ... |
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NO. WE WILL NOT BE -- YOU WILL NOT PENETRATE RESIDENCES. THIS IS NOT GOING TO PENETRATE BUILDINGS.... |
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IF I COULD ASK MR. SUTHERLAND AND MR. TEUFEL, BOTH OF YOU, IS THIS ANY SUPREME COURT CASE ON POINT... |
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WE'RE -- WE'RE -- COORDINATING OUR THOUGHTS ON DIFFERENT -- SUPREME COURT LITIGATION. THERE IS SUPREME... |
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THERE IS THE DECISION WITH THE LANGUAGE ABOUT REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS OF PRIVACY AND THERE IS WELL... |
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I GUESS I'M GETTING AT THERE HAS BEEN TALK ABOUT SPIES IN THE SKY, AND SPYING AND SNOOPING AND EVERYTHING... |
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YES. CONGRESSMAN KING, WE USE IT FOR BORDER SECURITY. WE'RE TRYING TO DETERMINE HOW BEST TO EMPLOY... |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MISS HARMON HAS AGREED TO START OUR QUESTIONING AFTER WE RECESS AND COME BACK.... |
| 00:42:39 |
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WE WOULD LIKE TO RECONVENE THE RECESSED HEARING. OUR NEXT QUESTIONER WILL BE MRS. HARMON FROM CALIFORNIA,... |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. WELCOME TO OUR WITNESSES. I HAVE WORKED WITH EACH OF YOU OVER SOME PERIOD... |
| 00:47:50 |
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MA'AM, AGAIN, I'M -- WHILE I AM AN ATTORNEY, I'M NOT A PRACTICING ATTORNEY. NEITHER IS DAN. MY UNDERSTANDING... |
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[INAUDIBLE] I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT ANSWER [INAUDIBLE] |
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YES, MA'AM. |
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I THINK, MR. ALLEN, CAN YOU PROVIDE THE COMMITTEE WITH A RESPONSE TO MISS HARMON'S -- |
| 00:48:28 |
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WE CERTAINLY WILL RESPOND TO THAT QUESTION, AND WE'LL ALSO GIVE HER THE ASSURANCES THAT THE -- OF... |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MISS HARMON, DO YOU WANT TO MAKE A COMMENT? |
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JUST -- MY COMMENT IS, MR. CHAIRMAN, THAT WITH RESPECT, I DON'T FIND THAT ANSWER SATISFACTORY. I... |
| 00:49:49 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH, AND -- I WANT MR. ALLEN TO UNDERSTAND THAT I MADE THE REQUEST, MISS HARMON HAS... |
| 00:50:34 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, AND I KNOW THAT -- I THINK RANKING MEMBER KING TALKED ABOUT SOME COURT --... |
| 00:51:37 |
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THANK YOU. JUST TO UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS I THINK WILL HELP. A REQUEST COMES IN FOR SOMEONE TO USE... |
| 00:53:04 |
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I WOULD LIKE TO EXPAND A LITTLE BIT ON THAT. N.G.A. HAS THE PROPER-USE MEMORANDUM, PUM, PROCESS. ... |
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AND I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ADD TO WHAT MR. TEUFEL SAID, IS THAT THE CIVIL APPLICATIONS COMMITTEE FALLS... |
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WE DID NOT -- WHEN I WAS AT INTERIOR, WE DID NOT REVIEW CAC REQUESTS THE WAY WE AT D.H.S. WILL BE... |
| 00:54:39 |
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THANK YOU. I GUESS MY -- MY NEXT SERIES OF QUESTIONS, AND I WILL TRY TO BE QUICK, WILL BE DIRECTED... |
| 00:55:02 |
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I THINK THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. BECAUSE THE PROCESS THAT WE HAVE TODAY IS AD HOC. IF THERE IS COMPETITION,... |
| 00:55:36 |
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HOW LONG DO YOU THINK -- HOW MUCH TIME WOULD IT TAKE BETWEEN THE TIME OF A REQUEST BEING SUBMITTED... |
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WELL, IF IT'S -- IF IT'S A RESEARCH TYPE OF EFFORT THAT THE CIVIL APPLICATIONS COMMITTEE, IT COULD... |
| 00:56:19 |
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THANK YOU. YIELD BACK. |
| 00:56:21 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE NOW YIELD FIVE MINUTES TO THE GENTLEMAN FROM TEXAS, MR. GREEN. |
| 00:56:32 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. I THANK YOU AND THE RANKING MEMBER FOR THEIR OPENING COMMENTS. I THINK THEY... |
| 00:59:33 |
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ALL RIGHT. IF THE N.G.A. IS UNDER THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, IT IS NOT COMPARABLE EVEN TO THE FISA COURTS.... |
| 01:00:15 |
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I BELIEVE, SIR, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE NATIONAL |
| 01:00:17 |
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NO. THE NATIONAL APPLICATIONS |
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WE ARE -- |
| 01:00:24 |
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IT WILL GO TO THE N.G.A. AND THE N.G.A. WILL REVIEW AND APPROVE THE COLLECTIONS OF INFORMATION. IS... |
| 01:00:30 |
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THAT'S NOT EXACTLY THE WAY IT WILL WORK, BECAUSE THE NATIONAL APPLICATIONS OFFICE, WORKING WITH BOTH... |
| 01:00:42 |
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IF I MAY HELP YOU -- IF I MAY, SIR, PLEASE, LET ME ABRIDGE YOUR COMMENTS. WILL NOT THE NATIONAL APPLICATIONS... |
| 01:00:49 |
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THEY WILL RECEIVE THE REQUEST AND WILL -- IT WILL PRIORITIZE -- |
| 01:00:53 |
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IF I MAY, PLEASE, WILL NOT THE NATIONAL APPLICATIONS OFFICE THEN TAKE THE REQUEST TO THE N.G.A.? |
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AFTER -- AFTER -- AFTER EXPLICIT, SIGNIFICANT LEGAL REVIEW TO MAKE SURE -- ABSOLUTELY. |
| 01:01:06 |
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WILL NOT THE N.COMBVMENT A. THEN GIVE A YEA OR NAY? |
| 01:01:08 |
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ANOTHER REVIEW. |
| 01:01:09 |
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A YEA OR NAY? |
| 01:01:11 |
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IF THERE IS -- IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, IT WILL BE RESOLVED BETWEEN THE TWO ORGANIZATIONS. |
| 01:01:14 |
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A ROSE BY ANY NAME. THAT WHICH WE CALL A ROSE BY ANY NAME STILL SMELLS AS SWEET. CALL IT N.G.A., CALL... |
| 01:01:27 |
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BOTH OFFICES FALL UNDER THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH. |
| 01:01:29 |
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THAT CREATES A GREAT AMOUNT OF CONSTERNATION IN THE MINDS OF CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLARS. I BELIEVE IT... |
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I BELIEVE THAT NO OTHER ELEMENT CAN REALLY UNDERSTAND THE CUSTOMERS -- |
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SIR, SIR, LISTEN, NOW, LISTEN, I BEG TO DIFFER WITH YOU -- |
| 01:02:22 |
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PRIORITIES -- |
| 01:02:24 |
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I BEG TO DIFFER WITH YOU, IF YOU ARE SAYING THERE ARE NOT OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND... |
| 01:02:35 |
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THAT -- THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID. YOU DIDN'T LET ME ANSWER. |
| 01:02:38 |
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LET ME -- LET ME GIVE YOU MORE TIME. |
| 01:02:41 |
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WHAT IT DOES IS -- THERE ARE LIMITS OF PHYSICS. WHAT WE HAVE IS AN APPLICATION FOR CIVIL AND HOMELAND... |
| 01:03:12 |
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IF I MAY, PLEASE, SIR, IT WILL -- I HAVE TO INTERCEDE BECAUSE I HAVE LITTLE TIME -- IT WILL BE DONE... |
| 01:03:49 |
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THANK YOU, TIME HAS EXPIRED. MR. ALLEN, I HOPE YOU GET THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THE COMMITTEE DESPERATELY... |
| 01:04:19 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. CHAIRMAN. THIS IS A MOST INTERESTING HEARING, AND I APPRECIATE WHAT THE GENTLEMAN... |
| 01:05:54 |
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WILL THE GENTLEMAN YIELD? |
| 01:05:55 |
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WAIT A SECOND. BUT THE QUESTION THAT REALLY COMES UP IS WITH THERMAL IMAGERY, BECAUSE IN THE KILO... |
| 01:06:44 |
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THAT IS MY VIEW. AS I SAID, WE CAN USE INFRARED IN A BROAD SENSE TO LOOK AT FOREST FIRES AND HOT SPOTS... |
| 01:06:53 |
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NO, I UNDERSTAND THAT. |
| 01:06:54 |
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NOT HOMES. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. |
| 01:06:58 |
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YOU'RE USING INFRARED AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS TO LOOK AT HOT SPOTS. THE IDEA OF THERMAL IMAGEING... |
| 01:07:38 |
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ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. |
| 01:07:40 |
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THAT'S ALL I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE DOING, BECAUSE WHEN I SAW THE ARTICLE THAT APPEARED IN... |
| 01:09:10 |
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THAT IS WELL UNDERSTOOD, AND WE CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT THAT IS THE CASE THAT WE'RE NOT HERE -- IT DOES... |
| 01:09:28 |
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IS THERE ANYTHING I SAID THAT YOU MAY DISAGREE WITH? |
| 01:09:33 |
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MR. LUNGREN, GENERAL LUNGREN, NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. IF THE NATIONAL TECHNICAL MEANS WERE TON USED IN... |
| 01:09:56 |
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THAT'S INCORPORATED IN THE PROMISES THAT YOU HAVE IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU ARE BRINGING FORWARD. ... |
| 01:10:01 |
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AND IT'S ALSO PART OF N.G.A.'S P.U.M. PROCESS, AND N.G.A. WOULD NOT ALLOW SUCH AN INAPPROPRIATE, IMPROPER... |
| 01:10:12 |
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BUT IT'S PART AND PARCEL OF THE DOCUMENTATION THAT YOU HAVE THAT REGULATES THIS PROGRAM AND THAT WE'RE... |
| 01:10:18 |
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THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, SIR. |
| 01:10:20 |
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I KNOW THE CONSTITUTION. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE PRINCIPLES LAID OUT AND THE WAY YOU'RE GOING TO OPERATE.... |
| 01:10:26 |
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THE CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS INCORPORATES THAT, YES. |
| 01:10:28 |
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OK. |
| 01:10:31 |
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WE ARE WORKING ON STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES FOR -- THEY'RE IN DRAFT FORM. YES. AND THE EXECUTIVE... |
| 01:10:42 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. |
| 01:10:44 |
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THANK YOU. BUT THE POINT FOR THE COMMITTEE'S SAKE AT THIS POINT IS THAT AT PRESENT, THERE IS NO SUCH... |
| 01:11:03 |
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MR. CHAIRMAN, RIGHT NOW THERE IS A CONCEPT OF OPERATIONS DOCUMENT THAT IS SET FINAL AND I BELIEVE... |
| 01:11:33 |
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THAT'S CORRECT. WE PROVIDED, I BELIEVE, THE CONCEPT OF OPERATION ON THE 17TH OF AUGUST, AS YOU KNOW... |
| 01:11:55 |
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YOU BRIEFED THE APPROPRIATORS BUT NOT THE AUTHORIZERS. I THINK THAT'S THE POINT. IS -- AND WHATEVER... |
| 01:12:11 |
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WE DID BRIEF THE HP SI, WHICH AUTHORIZES MY BUDGET SINCE IT FALLS UNDER THE NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE... |
| 01:12:21 |
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THE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES ARE NOT TO BE RECEIVED BY THIS COMMITTEE AND I THINK UNTIL WE RECEIVE... |
| 01:12:47 |
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THANKS, MR. CHAIR. I REALLY DON'T HAVE THAT MANY QUESTIONS. IT'S MORE OF A STATEMENT. AND I APOLOGIZE... |
| 01:15:21 |
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AND I APPRECIATE, CONGRESSMAN, YOUR CONCERNS, AND AS I SAID, THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK, THE GUIDELINES,... |
| 01:16:41 |
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THANKS, MR. CHAIR. |
| 01:16:42 |
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THANK YOU VERY MUCH. WE NOW YIELD FIVE MINUTES TO THE GENTLEMAN FROM WASHINGTON, MR. REICHER. |
| 01:16:49 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE, GOOD TO SEE ALL THREE OF YOU AGAIN. I JUST... |
| 01:17:17 |
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WE HAD THE D.N.I., CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES OFFICER INVOLVED IN NOVEMBER 2006 WHEN WE STARTED... |
| 01:17:53 |
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MR. SULLIVAN -- OR SUTHERLAND TESTIFIED THAT HE CAME INTO THE PROCESS IN JULY. SHOULD -- DO YOU AGREE,... |
| 01:18:03 |
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IN RETROSPECT, I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CASE BUT WE CERTAINLY GAVE HIM FULL -- WE WORKED COOPERATIVELY... |
| 01:18:12 |
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SIR, IF I MAY, I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY RECENTLY TO SPEAK WITH ALEX JOEL, WHO IS THE CIVIL LIBERTIES... |
| 01:19:25 |
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WOULD YOU DPIS -- PRIVACY IMPACT STATEMENT. |
| 01:19:27 |
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WOULD YOU DISAGREE WITH A MEMBER OF THE SECOND PANEL THAT SAID THAT YOU WERE MARGINALIZED IN THIS... |
| 01:19:32 |
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I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT TESTIMONY, SO IT'S DIFFICULT FOR ME TO SPEAK TO -- |
| 01:19:37 |
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WHAT'S YOUR PERSONAL FEELING? DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU WERE MARGINALIZED IN THIS PROCESS? |
| 01:19:39 |
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NO. NOT AT ALL. SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN THE OFFICE, I HAVE DONE A GREAT DEAL WORKING WITH CHARLIE AND... |
| 01:20:22 |
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THANK YOU. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME, THEN, WHAT THE PROCESS IS WHEN YOU DO WITNESS A INVASION VIOLATION,... |
| 01:20:40 |
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WE DEAL WITH THE GAMUT OF HOMELAND SECURITY EFFORTS. WE DEAL WITH THEM THE SAME. WE GO TO THE PEOPLE... |
| 01:21:12 |
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SO YOUR INVESTIGATIVE POLICY WOULD THEN BE ENACTED AND WOULD BE PUT FORWARD AND YOU WOULD INVESTIGATE... |
| 01:21:19 |
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SURE. IF NECESSARY. I MEAN, IF THERE IS A PROBLEM, TYPICALLY IT IS RESOLVED AT THE STAFF LEVEL. IF... |
| 01:22:00 |
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IF I MAY, MR. CHAIRMAN, ONE LAST QUESTION. DOES MOVING -- THE SIMPLE QUESTION -- DOES MOVING THE ... |
| 01:22:22 |
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I WILL LET MY COLLEAGUE SPEAK BUT WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THE SAME PROCESSES ONLY WITH GREATER LAYERS... |
| 01:23:00 |
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CONGRESSMAN, WE BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE ADDITIONAL LAYERS OF REVIEW AND ANALYSIS THAT ARE BROUGHT TO... |
| 01:23:48 |
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IF I MAY JUST COMMENT QUICKLY, MR. CHAIRMAN, I APPRECIATE YOUR -- YOUR TESTIMONY. I DO SHARE THE SAME... |
| 01:24:44 |
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SIR, IF I MAY. IF THE 4TH AMENDMENT REQUIRED A AMENDMENT BEFORE, THE 4TH AMENDMENT REQUIRES A WARRANT... |
| 01:25:01 |
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THANK YOU. YIELD FIVE MINUTES TO THE GENTLEMAN FROM NORTH CAROLINA. MR. ETHERIDGE. |
| 01:25:06 |
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THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN. LET ME THANK EACH OF YOU FOR BEING HERE AND ALSO FOR YOUR SERVICE. I'LL SAY... |
NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.
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