Born Loser: A History of Failure in America

Mar 28, 2005

NPR (National Public Radio) | Diane Rehm Show WAMU-FM, Washington, DC

Scott Sandage appeared on the "Diane Rehm Show" to talk about his book Born Loser: A History of Failure in America, published by Harvard University Press. It takes a look at the notion of failure and how it has evolved from simple business losses to a measure of one's self-worth. Mr. Sandage chronicles the history of failure through the .. Read More
Scott Sandage appeared on the "Diane Rehm Show" to talk about his book Born Loser: A History of Failure in America, published by Harvard University Press. It takes a look at the notion of failure and how it has evolved from simple business losses to a measure of one's self-worth. Mr. Sandage chronicles the history of failure through the real-life experiences of those who never found success. Among the topics he addressed were the changing definitions of success in American history, societal expectations, moral values, and business culture in the 19th century, and popular perceptions of various historical figures. He also responded to telephone calls from listeners.

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TRANSCRIPT

TIME SPEAKER TEXT
00:00:24 none WE'LL GET TO IT.
00:00:27 Unidentified Speaker THANKS FOR JOINING US. I'M DIANE RAIM. AS A NATION WE DELIGHT IN RATION TO RICHES TAR HEELS. BUT...
00:01:20 Unidentified Speaker GOOD MORNING, DIANE.
00:01:22 Unidentified Speaker I WAS FASCINATED YOU BEGAN THE BOOK WITH A PROLOGUE ABOUT THOREAU'S FUNERAL, AND IT WAS EMERSON WHO...
00:01:59 Unidentified Speaker THOREAU BECAME SOMETHING OF A MUSE IN THIS BOOK I THINK BECAUSE TO US HE REPRESENTS THE BEST ALTERNATIVE...
00:03:39 Unidentified Speaker DOESN'T THAT SUGGEST HOWEVER THAT FAILURE IS IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER?
00:03:45 Unidentified Speaker I THINK IT IS IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER. THAT'S PERHAPS THE BEST HOPE AND BALM THAT WE CAN EACH...
00:04:15 Unidentified Speaker THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE HISTORY OF FAILURE REALLY CHANGES DRAMATICALLY IN THE 19TH CENTURY. SOMEHOW...
00:04:55 Unidentified Speaker THAT WAS THE THING THAT SURPRISED ME MOST IN WRITING THIS BOOK. I ASSUMED WHEN I STARTED THAT FAILURE...
00:06:53 Unidentified Speaker SCOTT IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY. HE'S THE AUTHOR OF A BRAND...
00:07:18 Unidentified Speaker YEAH. THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THEM, ACTUALLY. THE IMPETUS FOR WRITING THIS BOOK FIRST CAME IN THE EARLY...
00:08:55 Unidentified Speaker OF COURSE HE HIMSELF FELT HIMSELF TO BE A FAILURE ON MANY FRONTS. BUT THERE WAS ALSO A CONVERSATION,...
00:09:11 Unidentified Speaker YES. SO THE BOOKSTORE AND ABRAHAM LINCOLN WAS THE PROFESSIONAL SIDE OF WRITING THIS BOOK. THE PERSONAL...
00:09:30 Unidentified Speaker HOW OLD WAS SHE?
00:09:32 Unidentified Speaker SHE WAS 83. SHE WAS BLIND. AND SO I HAD A TAPE RECORDER WITH ME THAT I DIDN'T TELL HER ABOUT. THIS...
00:09:43 Unidentified Speaker YOU DID NOT TELL HER YOU WERE ABOUT TO TAPE HER.
00:09:46 Unidentified Speaker I DID NOT TELL HER I WAS TAPE RECORDING HER. BUT I ASKED HER TO TELL ME ABOUT HER LIFE. SHE TOLD...
00:11:09 Unidentified Speaker WHAT IS A REGULATOR CLOCK?
00:11:11 Unidentified Speaker A WALL CLOCK THAT SORT OF HAS A PENDULUM THAT SWINGS BACK AND FORTH. SHE PAUSED FOR A LONG TIME. ON...
00:11:51 Unidentified Speaker THE BOOK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS TITLED, "BORN LOSERS" BY SCOTT SANDIDGE. WHEN WE RETURN MORE CONVERSATION...
00:12:09 Unidentified Speaker THIS IS WONDERFUL. JUST WONDERFUL.
00:12:11 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU SO MUCH.
00:12:15 Unidentified Speaker I'M WONDERING IF C-SPAN IS BROADCASTING THIS LIVE AND WHETHER -- IT'S TAPED. OK. BECAUSE I WAS GOING...
00:13:25 Unidentified Speaker WELCOME BACK. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A HISTORY OF FAILURE IN AMERICA. A NEW BOOK BY SCOTT SAND IDGE...
00:14:26 Unidentified Speaker ONE OF THE WAYS I DESCRIBE THE CHANGE THAT YOU HAVE ALLUDED TO IS THE LANGUAGE OF BUSINESS APPLIED...
00:16:12 Unidentified Speaker HOW DID THE END OF SLAVERY AFFECT THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF WINNING AND LOSING?
00:16:20 Unidentified Speaker IN A REALLY SURPRISING WAY. BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR IN AMERICA, THERE WERE TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE. A PERSON...
00:17:12 Unidentified Speaker AND HOW DID THE MINISTERS OF THE CHURCH PREACH ABOUT FAILURE?
00:17:21 Unidentified Speaker WELL, VERY MUCH THE WAY THE SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN OF TODAY PREACH ABOUT IT IN REVISING OUR BANKRUPTCY...
00:18:07 Unidentified Speaker IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE YOU SAY THE MOTTO OF THE 19TH CENTURY FOR SUCCESS BECAME THAT GO AHEAD MOTTO...
00:18:38 Unidentified Speaker YES, IT IS. SOMETIMES I SAY THAT THE 19TH CENTURY INVENTED THE EXCLAMATION POINT. THAT PHRASE, GO...
00:19:26 Unidentified Speaker OF COURSE SO MANY PEOPLE WROTE LETTERS TO THE JOHN D. ROCKEFELLERS AND J.P. MORGANS ASKING FOR MONEY....
00:19:46 Unidentified Speaker THOSE LETTERS ARE CALLED BEGGING LETTERS. THEY WERE CALLED THAT BACK IN THE 1800'S. I THINK THAT...
00:20:27 Unidentified Speaker WHERE DID YOU FIND THEM?
00:20:30 Unidentified Speaker I FOUND THEM IN NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK STRATEGY OF LOOKING IN LETTERS AND DIARIES. I FOUND GOOD SOURCES...
00:21:10 Unidentified Speaker WERE ANY OF THOSE LETTERS, AS FAR AS YOU COULD TELL, RESPONDED TO BY THESE GREAT MEN?
00:21:16 Unidentified Speaker YES. AND I SHOULD MENTION THAT JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER WASN'T THE ONLY MAN WHO RECEIVED THEM. ANDREW...
00:21:53 Unidentified Speaker ONE OF THE FASCINATING STORIES YOU TELL IN THE BOOK IS THAT OF LEWIS TAPIAN -- TAPPAN WHO IN 1841...
00:22:10 Unidentified Speaker LEWIS TAPPAN IS ONE OF THE MOST FASCINATING CHARACTERS OF THE 19TH CENTURY. HE WAS A NEW ENGLAND CAL...
00:23:42 Unidentified Speaker HANGING AROUND.
00:23:45 Unidentified Speaker YOU DON'T THINK OF HENRY THOREAU HANGING AROUND ON WALL STREET. HE HAD COME TO NEW YORK TRYING TO...
00:24:59 Unidentified Speaker BUT THIS WAS TRULY INVOLVING WHAT YOU CALL COVERT
00:25:03 Unidentified Speaker YES.
00:25:04 Unidentified Speaker WHO WENT ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY ASSESSING THE BEHAVIOR OF PEOPLE. HOW THEY DEALT WITH THEIR FINANCES....
00:25:22 Unidentified Speaker IT IS VERY EXTRAORDINARY. I THINK IT'S IN SOME WAYS THE BEGINNING OF THE INFORMATION INDUSTRY. IT'S...
00:26:19 Unidentified Speaker SPYING ON THESE PEOPLE.
00:26:20 Unidentified Speaker IT IS SPYING. ABSOLUTELY.
00:26:23 Unidentified Speaker AND BEGINNING TO IDENTIFY WINNERS AND LOSERS.
00:26:28 Unidentified Speaker AND SHAPING THE DEFINITIONS.
00:26:30 Unidentified Speaker AT 27 BEFORE THE HOUR YOU'RE LISTENING TO THE DIANE RAME SHOW. WE HAVE A GREAT MANY CALLERS WAITING...
00:27:20 Unidentified Speaker MOSTLY THE BOOK USES BUSINESS FAILURE AS AN ENTRY POINT. INTO PSYCH LOGICAL AND PERSONAL ISSUES ASSOCIATED...
00:27:54 Unidentified Speaker OF COURSE, THEY TOOK THEIR OWN LIVES BECAUSE THEY CONSIDERED THEMSELVES AS TOTAL FAILURES.
00:27:58 Unidentified Speaker CORRECT. AND SO THERE WAS A WINDOW INTO THE PSYCHOLOGY AT LEAST AT THE VERY END OF SOMEBODY'S LIFE...
00:28:50 Unidentified Speaker AND THOSE ARE THE BOOKENDS OF YOUR BOOK, ARTHUR MILLER'S PLAY OF "DEATH OF A SALESMAN" AT THE END....
00:29:26 Unidentified Speaker THANKS FOR TAKING MY CALL. IT'S A VERY POIGNANT SUBJECT. I HAVE A QUESTION FOR SCOTT DEALING WITH...
00:30:11 Unidentified Speaker THANKS FOR CALLING, BYRON.
00:30:13 Unidentified Speaker AS A HISTORIAN, IT'S HARD FOR ME SOMETIMES TO OFFER DIRECTED ADVICE TO PEOPLE OTHER THAN THE LESSONS...
00:30:51 Unidentified Speaker AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO HOLD THAT STORY FOR JUST A MOMENT. WE TAKE A SHORT BREAK IN OUR DISCUSSION...
00:33:26 Unidentified Speaker JUST BEFORE THE BREAK IN OUR DISCUSSION OF NEW BOOK TITLED "BORN LOSERS", THE HISTORY OF FAILURE IN...
00:33:56 Unidentified Speaker THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO THE CALL FROM BYRON IN DALLAS WHO ASKED ABOUT THE CONFLICT BETWEEN SUCCEEDING...
00:35:36 Unidentified Speaker THAT $100,000.
00:35:39 Unidentified Speaker BUYING BACK THOSE FAMILIES AND BRINGING THEM NORTH AND SETTING THEM FREE. SO HERE WAS A BEAUTIFUL...
00:36:28 Unidentified Speaker HERE'S AN EMAIL. THAT ASKS I'D BE INTERESTED TO HEAR THE PROFESSOR'S OPINION ABOUT THE INFLUENCE OF...
00:36:52 Unidentified Speaker THAT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION. ONE OF THE STORIES OF CHRISTIANITY IS THAT YOU RISK AND LOSE ALL IN...
00:37:44 Unidentified Speaker LET'S GO TO ARIZONA. HI THERE, KATHY. YOU'RE ON THE AIR.
00:37:48 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU, DIANE. I REALLY APPRECIATE THE PROFESSOR'S MEASURED UNDERSTANDING OF ALL OF THIS FROM...
00:38:29 Unidentified Speaker WELL, THE COMMENT IS A DEPRESSING ONE AND IN SOME WAYS THE BOOK FOLLOWS SOME OF THESE SAME THEMES....
00:40:24 Unidentified Speaker HERE'S AN EMAIL FROM DOUG IN BIG SANDY, MONTANA, WHO SAYS, "THE ANGEL CLARENCE SAYS IN "IT'S A WONDERFUL...
00:41:07 Unidentified Speaker THAT IS ALSO A REALLY EVOCKTIVE COMMENT. AND, OF COURSE, CLARENCE THE ANGEL IN THE OLD JIMMY STEWART...
00:42:34 Unidentified Speaker HERE IS AN EMAIL FROM HUMBERTO WHO SAYS, "AS A HISTORY STUDENT, I'M CONSTANTLY FASCINATED BY THE NUMBERS...
00:43:21 Unidentified Speaker THAT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION FROM HUMBERTO. ONE OF THE PLACES I WAS ABLE TO DISTINGUISH ATTITUDES...
00:43:46 Unidentified Speaker AND, OF COURSE, IN THE PERIOD YOU ARE LOOKING AT AND RESEARCHING VERY FEW WOMEN HAD ACHIEVED ANY POSITION...
00:43:59 Unidentified Speaker THAT'S RIGHT. AND THAT'S PART OF WHAT I CALL THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF FAILURE. AS WE TALKED ABOUT IN...
00:44:20 Unidentified Speaker LET'S LOOK AT RALPH'S QUESTION FROM ST. AUGUSTINE, FLORIDA. GOOD MORNING TO YOU.
00:44:25 Unidentified Speaker GOOD MORNING. VERY INTERESTING SUBJECT.
00:44:34 Unidentified Speaker GOOD.
00:44:35 Unidentified Speaker I'VE COME ORIGINALLY FROM FLINT, MICHIGAN. WE HAD A GREAT FAILURE THERE IF YOU KNOW THE STORY. AND...
00:45:12 Unidentified Speaker YEAH.
00:45:13 Unidentified Speaker WHAT DOES THE AUTHOR THINK OF THAT?
00:45:18 Unidentified Speaker I AGREE WITH THAT. I ALSO THINK THAT THERE ARE EXTERNAL ISSUES THAT ONE HAS TO PAY ATTENTION TO. ...
00:45:52 Unidentified Speaker HERE'S AN INTERESTING EMAIL FROM DON ON LONG ISLAND IN NEW YORK. WHO SAYS, "I BELIEVE FAILURE IS ...
00:46:34 Unidentified Speaker YEAH. AND THAT'S A PAINFUL QUESTION FOR ME PERSONALLY. IN A WAY. I WORKED ON THIS BOOK FOR MORE ...
00:47:43 Unidentified Speaker AT SIX MINUTES BEFORE THE HOUR, YOU'RE LISTENING TO THE DIANE REAM SHOW. AND SCOTT, HOW DO YOU FEEL...
00:47:54 Unidentified Speaker I FEEL GREAT.
00:47:56 Unidentified Speaker HAVING FINISHED THE BOOK
00:47:57 Unidentified Speaker HAVING FINISHED THIS BOOK. YEAH. IT WAS A GREAT ACT OF WILL. IS WHAT I TELL MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY...
00:48:18 Unidentified Speaker SO THE EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF WORKING ON THIS BOOK, BEING EXPOSED TO PEOPLE WHO REALLY FELT LIKE LOSERS...
00:48:53 Unidentified Speaker YEAH.
00:48:54 Unidentified Speaker YOU COULD?
00:48:56 Unidentified Speaker YEAH. BUT IT WAS HARD GOING. AND I BEGAN THINK, ALL RIGHT, I NOW UNDERSTAND WHY NOBODY WROTE A BOOK...
00:49:05 Unidentified Speaker BECAUSE IT ALWAYS REFLECTS ON YOU.
00:49:08 Unidentified Speaker IT'S A BUMMER. I MEAN, IT'S A TOUGH TOP DWROIK STAY WITH EVERY DAY. I HOPE MY BOOK IS NOT A BUMMER....
00:49:16 Unidentified Speaker YOUR BOOK IS NOT A BUMMER. I CAN ASSURE YOU OF THAT. IT'S A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION AND DISCOVERY...
00:49:56 Unidentified Speaker YES. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
00:49:59 Unidentified Speaker DO YOU HAVE ANOTHER ONE?
00:50:00 Unidentified Speaker YES. MY NEXT BOOK IS CALLED "HALF BREED CREEK." IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT TOPIC. IT'S ABOUT AN INDIAN...
00:50:16 Unidentified Speaker SCOTT IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT CARNEGIE MELON UNIVERSITY. HIS NEW BOOK IS TITLED "BORN...
00:50:31 Unidentified Speaker THANK YOU, DIANE, FOR HAVING ME.
00:50:34 Unidentified Speaker AND THANKS FOR LISTENING. I'M DIANE REAM.

NOTE: The transcript for this program was compiled from uncorrected Closed Captioning.

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