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Jun 8, 2012

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00:00:00 FOR GAO'S WORK PERTAINING TO THE IRS, TAX OF MINISTRATION, AND TAX POLICY.
00:00:05 THANK YOU FOR BEING YOU.
00:00:08 SECOND WE WELCOME BACK DOCTOR DONALD MARRON, DIRECTOR OF TAX POLICY CENTER AT THE URBAN INSTITUTE HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.
00:00:16 C. DR. MARRON'S RESEARCH AT THE TAX POLICY CENTER IS FOCUSED ON TAX REFORM AS HIS PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS THE ACTING FRONT OF THE CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE AND AS A MEMBER OF THE PRESIDENTS COUNCIL ON ECONOMIC ADVISERS.
00:00:30 THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY, SIR.
00:00:31 THIRD WE WILL HEAR FROM ESTHER ALEX BRILL, RICHARD HILL AT THE AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE HERE IN WASHINGTON, D.
00:00:38 C. MR. BRILL IS AN ALUM OF THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE STAFF.
00:00:42 AND IS ALSO SERVED ON THE PRESIDENTS COUNCIL ON ECONOMIC ADVISERS AND TO SERVE AS AN ADVISE HER TO THE PRESIDENT'S FISCAL COMMISSION AND 2010.
00:00:50 WELCOME BACK TO THE ROOM, SIR.
00:00:52 GLAD TO HAVE YOU.
00:00:53 AND, FINALLY, WE WILL HEAR FROM AARON GORNSTEIN, THE UNDERSECRETARY FOR HOUSING AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT FOR THE COMMONWEALTH OF US CHOOSE ITS.
00:01:02 GO CELTICS.
00:01:05 AND BEING FROM OHIO, THERE'S EVEN AN ADDED LITTLE EMPHASIS ON THAT.
00:01:11 [LAUGHTER] THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TODAY, FOLKS.
00:01:14 SUBCOMMITTEE HAS RECEIVED FROM EACH OF YOU WRITTEN STATEMENTS, AND THEY WILL BE MADE PART OF A FORMAL HEARING RECORD, AS YOU KNOW.
00:01:23 EACH OF YOU WILL BE RECOGNIZED FOR FIVE MINUTES FOR ORAL TESTIMONY, AND THEN WE'LL HAVE QUESTIONS.
00:01:29 WITH THAT, DR.
00:01:30 WHITE, THE FLOOR IS YOURS.
00:01:31 >> THANK YOU.
00:01:34 MR. CHAIRMAN, ACTING RANKING MEMBER AND MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE, I'M PLEASED TO BE HERE DISCUSS HOW TO EVALUATE THE EXPIRING TAX PROVISIONS, SOMETIMES CALLED TAX EXTENDERS.
00:01:44 MOST OUR TAX EXPENDITURES WILL FOCUS ON THOSE.
00:01:47 HOWEVER, THE EVALUATION PRINCIPLES I DISCUSSED TO APPLY MORE BROADLY.
00:01:51 TAX EXPENDITURES, SPECIAL CREDITS, DEDUCTIONS, DEFERRALS AND SO ON THAT REDUCE THE TAXPAYERS TAXABLE LIABILITY FROM WHAT IT WOULD'VE BEEN UNDER A NORMAL TAX, UNDER A QUOTE NORMAL TAX.
00:02:04 TAX EXPENDITURES OFTEN A POLICY GOALS SIMILAR TO THOSE OF SPENDING PROGRAMS.
00:02:09 THEY MAY PROMOTE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, ENERGY EFFICIENCY, OR RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE TAX REVENUE IS FOREGONE, SUCH PROVISIONS MADE IN EFFECT BE VIEWED AS SPENDING CHANNEL THROUGH THE TAX SYSTEM.
00:02:20 LIKE DECISIONS ABOUT SPENDING, DECISIONS ON WHETHER AND HOW TO EXTEND TAX PROVISIONS INVOLVE TRADE-OFFS BETWEEN POLICY GOALS AND COST OF MY WRITTEN STATEMENT SUMMARIZES FACTORS COMMONLY USED TO EVALUATE GOVERNMENT POLICY, INCLUDING TAX POLICY CENTER HAS EXPIRING PROVISIONS.
00:02:38 FIRST IS THE EFFECT OF EXTENDING THE PROVISIONS ON REVENUE.
00:02:42 TAX EXPENDITURES SHRANK THE TAX BASE.
00:02:46 IS THE REDUCED FUNDING AVAILABLE FOR OTHER FEDERAL ACTIVITIES OR REQUIRE HIGHER TAX RATES TO RAISE THE SAME AMOUNT OF REVENUE FROM THE SMALLER BASE.
00:02:53 PUT ANOTHER WAY, REVENUE THE GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE -- COULD'VE BEEN USED TO FUND OTHER OH GRAMS.
00:03:04 SECOND IS IN EFFECT ON EQUITY, THE ECONOMY AND TAXPAYERS COMPLIANCE BURDEN TO EQUITY OR FAIRNESS IS A SUBJECTIVE JUDGMENT BUT ASKING QUESTION BUT WHO BENEFITS FROM THE PROVISION AT HOW ABILITY TO PAY TAX IS EFFECTIVE AND HELP POLICYMAKERS REACHED CONCLUSIONS ABOUT IT.
00:03:21 THE EFFECT ON THE ECONOMY IS WHAT MY STATEMENT CALLS ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY, LIKELY TAXING ONE ACTIVITY SHIFTS RESOURCES TO IT AND AWAY FROM LESS TAXPAYERS ACTIVITY.
00:03:34 THE OVERALL EFFECT DEPENDS ON WHETHER THE FAVORITE ACTIVITY PROVIDES GREATER BENEFITS THAN THE LESS FAVORED ACTIVITY.
00:03:39 THE EFFECT ON TAXPAYERS COST TO COMPLY WITH THE PROVISION DEPENDS ON ITS SIMPLICITY AND TRANSPARENCY.
00:03:46 CONTACTORS UNDERSTAND THE PROVISION?
00:03:49 WHAT KIND OF RECORDS WILL THEY NEED TO KEEP?
00:03:53 AND, OF COURSE, SIMPLICITY AND TRANSPARENCY AFFECTS IRS'S ABILITY TO ADMINISTER AND ENFORCE THE PROVISION.
00:03:57 A THIRD FACTOR TO CONSIDER WHEN EVALUATING EXPIRING PROVISIONS IS WHETHER THE TAX SYSTEM IS THE BEST WAY TO DELIVER THE BENEFIT OR WHETHER SOME OF THE TOOL OF GOVERNMENT SUCH AS LOAN GUARANTEE TO PROVIDE THE SAME BENEFIT AT LOWER COST.
00:04:12 TAX EXPENDITURES MAY HAVE A COST ADVANTAGE WHEN BENEFITS ARE MEANS TESTED.
00:04:18 ONE GOAL IS TO PREVENT FRAGMENTATION OVERLAP OR DUPLICATION AMONG PROGRAM, NOT JUST TO SAVE MONEY BUT ALSO TO AVOID CONFUSING THE PUBLIC.
00:04:26 ALSO IMPORT IS THE CHOICE OF TAX POLICY TOOL.
00:04:29 THE CHOICE OF A CREDIT VERSUS A DEDUCTION, FOR EXAMPLE, AFFECTS INCENTIVES IN THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE BENEFITS.
00:04:36 A FINAL FACTOR IS MEASUREMENT ARE TOO OFTEN PROGRAMS ARE IMPLEMENTED WITH LITTLE ATTENTION TO HOW WE WILL MEASURE THE RESULTS.
00:04:42 IN THE CASE OF TAX PROVISIONS MEASURING RESULTS COMPLICATED BECAUSE IRS ADMINISTERS THE PROVISION BUT IT IS NOT THE AGENCY WITH FUNCTIONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR ENERGY EFFICIENCY IN A COMMUNITY BUILDING OR ANY OF THE OTHER GOALS OF THE EXPIRING PROVISIONS.
00:04:59 THE DECISIONS ARE MADE ABOUT WHAT AGENCY SHOULD EVALUATE TAX PROVISIONS, WHO SHOULD COLLECT NECESSARY DATA, AND SO ON.
00:05:06 NOW I WANT TO BRIEFLY ILLUSTRATE THAT GAO HAS APPLIED THESE FACTORS IN OUR REPORTS.
00:05:12 REGARDING THE CREDIT FOR ETHANOL, WE FOUND THAT WHILE THE CREDIT CAN CREATE THE INDUSTRY RING ITS FORMATIVE YEARS, HAVING BOTH A TAX CREDIT AND A RENEWABLE FUEL STANDARD NOW IS DUPLICATIVE.
00:05:23 WE SUGGESTED THAT CONGRESS CONSIDER MODIFYING OR PHASING OUT THE CREDIT.
00:05:27 OUR REPORT ON HIGHER EDUCATION TAX ASSISTANCE RAISE TRANSPARENCY QUESTIONS.
00:05:33 THERE ARE MULTIPLE SUCH COMPLEX PROVISIONS, AND WE FOUND MANY OTHERS WILL TAXPAYERS EITHER FAILED TO CLAIM ANYTHING OR CLAIMED ONE THAT DID NOT MAXIMIZE THEIR FINANCIAL BENEFIT.
00:05:43 WE LOOK AT THE EFFICIENCY OF THE RESEARCH CREDIT.
00:05:46 WHILE ECONOMISTS TEND TO SUPPORT THE EIGHTH SUBSIDY FOR RESEARCH, THE SOCIAL RETURNS EXCEED THE PRIVATE RETURNS TO FIRMS, WE FOUND THE CURRENT DESIGN INTRODUCED INEFFICIENCY BECAUSE INCENTIVES ARE DISTRIBUTED UNEVENLY ACROSS FIRMS AND ESTIMATE THAT MORE THAN HALF OF THE REGULAR CREDIT, THE WINDFALL FOR RESEARCH THAT WOULD OF BEEN DONE ANYWAY.
00:06:11 WE SUGGESTED CHANGES TO IMPROVE THE BANG FOR BUCK OF THE CREDIT BUT WE ALSO LOOKED AT WHETHER THE NEW MARKETS TAX CREDITS NEEDED MOVING RESOURCE AT INTENT.
00:06:21 THE CREDITS DIDN'T APPEAR TO INCREASE INVESTMENT IN LOW-INCOME COMMUNITIES.
00:06:25 HOWEVER, WE ALSO REPORTED THAT THE COMPLEXITY MAKES IT'S DIFFICULT TO REACH SMALLER PROJECTS AND RESULTS IN LESS MONEY FLOWING THROUGH TO LOW INCOME COMMUNITY BUSINESSES THAT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE WITH ALTERNATIVE DESIGN.
00:06:38 WE SUGGESTED THAT CONGRESS CONSIDER OFFERING GRANTS INSTEAD OF TAX CREDITS WITH ONE OPTION BEING A SIDE-BY-SIDE TEST OF THE TWO APPROACHES.
00:06:47 MR. CHAIRMAN, ACTING RANKING MEMBER AND OTHER MEMBERS, WE'VE DONE IN NUMBER OF OTHER SUCH ASSESSMENTS ALL INTEND TO PROVIDE CONGRESS WITH FACTUAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE EVALUATION FACTORS I OUTLINED UP FRONT.
00:06:59 HOW TO USE THE INFORMATION AND MAKE TRADE-OFFS BETWEEN THE FACTORS IS UP TO POLICYMAKERS.
00:07:04 I BE HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS.
00:07:06 >> THANK YOU, DR.
00:07:08 WHITE.
00:07:09 DR. MARRON, YOU HAVE FIVE MINUTES.
00:07:11 >> THANK YOU.
00:07:14 CHAIRMAN TIBERI, RANKING MEMBER THOMPSON, MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE, THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME TO APPEAR TODAY TO DISCUSS THE BREEDING CHALLENGE OF THE TAX EXTENDERS WHICH MIGHT BE BETTER CALLED ATTACKS EXPIRE WORSE.
00:07:26 AS YOU KNOW THAT UNITED STATES FACES A SHARP FISCAL CLIFF AT YEAR END WHEN NUMEROUS POLICY CHANGES OCCUR.
00:07:32 IF ALL THESE CHANGES HAPPEN THEY WILL REDUCE FISCAL 2013 DEFICIT BY ABOUT $500 BILLION ACCORDING TO CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE.
00:07:40 BEFORE TAKING INTO ACCOUNT ANY NEGATIVE FEEDBACK FROM A WE THE ECONOMY.
00:07:45 ABOUT ONE-EIGHTH OF THAT CLIFF, $65 BILLION, COMES FROM THE EXPIRING AND EXPIRED TAX CUTS THAT ARE THE FOCUS OF TODAY'S HEARING.
00:07:57 IN DECIDING THEIR FATE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER THE LARGER PROBLEMS FACING OUR TAX SYSTEM.
00:08:00 ASSISTANT IS NEEDED -- NEED IS A COMPLEX, HARMFUL AND WIDELY PERCEIVED AS UNFAIR.
00:08:02 IS INCREASING UNPREDICTABLE, AND IT FAILS IN BOTH ITS BASIC TASK.
00:08:08 THEY EXPIRE OR'S OFTEN WORSENED THE CONTRADICTORY UNCERTAINTY, GAY COMPLIANCE AND CAUSE HIM TO READ SOME OF THE TAX CODE LESS FAIR, SOME MORE FOR.
00:08:17 SOME WE DID OUR ECONOMY, WHILE OTHERS STRENGTHENING.
00:08:22 FUNDAMENTAL TAX REFORM WOULD OF COURSE BE THE BEST WAY TO ADDRESS THESE CONCERNS.
00:08:26 OF SUCH REFORM ISN'T LIKELY SOON.
00:08:28 YOU MUST AGAIN GRAPPLE WITH THE EXPIRERS.
00:08:30 AS A STARTING POINT LET ME NOTE THAT THEY COME IN THREE FLAVORS.
00:08:34 THE FIRST OUR TAX CUTS THAT WERE ENACTED TO ADDRESS THE CAMBRIDGE ON SUCH AS THE RECESSION, THOUSAND OF THEM ARE REGIONAL DISASTERS.
00:08:41 THE SECOND OUR TAX CUTS THAT REACH THE SUNSET REVIEW.
00:08:45 PROLONGED ECONOMIC WEAKNESS IN RECENT OMNIBUS EXTENSIONS MEANS THAT THERE AREN'T THAT MANY OF THE MOMENT BUT THEY DO EXIST.
00:08:51 AND THIRD TO OUR TAX CUTS THAT EXPIRE.
00:08:55 THESE APPEAR TO BE THE MOST COMMON.
00:08:58 SUPPORTERS INTEND THESE BELONG LIVES ARE PERMANENT BUT THEY HAVEN'T FOUND A BUDGET RESOURCES TO DO SO.
00:09:04 TO DETERMINE WHICH OF THESE POLICIES SHOULD BE EXTENDED AND WHICH NOT YOU SHOULD CONSIDER SEVERAL FACTORS BUT DOES THE PROVISION ADDRESS THE COMPELLING NEED FOR GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION?
00:09:15 DOES INTERVENTION? DOES IT CAN'T PUSH ITS GOAL EFFECTIVELY AND AT REASONABLE COST?
00:09:19 DOESN'T MAKE THE TAX CODE MORE OR LESS FAIR?
00:09:20 DO IT POTENTIAL BENEFITS JUSTIFY THE REVENUE LOSS FOR THE NEED FOR HARD TAXES ELSEWHERE?
00:09:25 IN SHORT YOU SHOULD SUBJECT THESE REVISIONS TO THE SAME STANDARDS APPLIED TO OTHER POLICIES.
00:09:30 IN THIS CASE YOU SHOULD KEEP IN MIND THAT MOST OF THE SO-CALLED TAX EXTENDERS ARE EFFECTIVELY SPENDING TO TAX COULD PICK YOU SHOULD HOLD INTO THE SAME STANDARDS AS OTHER PROGRAMS.
00:09:40 YOU SHOULD ALSO REVIEW THE WAY YOU REVIEW THE EXPIRING TAX.
00:09:46 YOU SHOULD FLIP THE BIRD APPROVED.
00:09:49 MOST OF THESE PROVISIONAL ULTIMATELY EXTEND.
00:09:52 THAT'S WHY THEY'RE CALLED THE EXTENDERS EVEN AFTER THEY HAVE EXPIRED.
00:09:56 ULTIMATELY, THOUGH WE SHOULD MOVE TO EXTENSION -- EXPIRE AND PROVISIONS WILL EXPIRE UNLESS THEY CAN JUSTIFY THE CONTINUATION.
00:10:06 IN SHORT, THEY SHOULD BE THE EXPIRERS.
00:10:08 SECOND YOU SHOULD DIVIDE THEM UP.
00:10:12 LIKE MOST, THE BENEFICIARIES OF THE PROVISIONS REALIZED THERE IS SAFETY IN NUMBERS BUT TRIED TO MIGRATE ACROSS THE ANNUAL LEGISLATIVE THUNDER WITH LITTLE INDIVIDUAL ATTENTION IS POSSIBLE.
00:10:26 YOU SHOULD BREAK UP THE HER TO RETURN EACH PROVISION IN DETAIL MAY NOT BE PRACTICAL IN A SINGLE YOU'RE GIVEN HOW MANY THERE ARE, BUT YOU CAN IDENTIFY SPECIFIC GROUPS FOR CAREFUL REVIEW.
00:10:35 FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN SEPARATE OUT THE STEAM IS PROVISIONS, THE CHARITY PROVISIONS, ENERGY PROVISIONS AND SO ON.
00:10:41 YOU SHOULD ALSO TRY TO SPREAD EXPECTATIONS OUT OVER TIME.
00:10:47 IF YOU EXPORT ANY GIVEN YEAR YOU BE ABLE TO GIVE THEM MORE ATTENTION.
00:10:50 THIRD I THINK YOU WANT TO CHANGE BUDGET RULES FOR TEMPORARY TAX CUTS.
00:10:55 PAY AS.
00:10:56 PAY-AS-YOU-GO BUDGET CREATES CRUCIAL DISCIPLINE THAT HAS AN UNFORTUNATE SIDE EFFECT.
00:11:00 LONG-TERM TAX POLICIES OFTEN GET CHOPPED INTO ONE YOUR SEGMENTS.
00:11:04 IN ADDITION 10 YEARS OF OFFSETS CAN BE USED TO PAY FOR A SINGLE YEAR EXTENSION.
00:11:07 TO COMBAT THIS YOU WOULD REQUIRE IN TEMPERATE TAX EFFICIENT BE ASSUMED NO LESS THAN FIVE YEARS.
00:11:16 PROPONENTS WOULD HAVE TO ROUND UP ENOUGH BUDGET OFFICE TO PAY FOR THOSE FIVE YEARS.
00:11:20 IN ADDITION YOU COULD REQUIRE THAT OFFSETS HAPPEN OVER THE SAME SPAN OF YEARS AS AN EXTENSION.
00:11:26 THAT WOULD ELIMINATE SITUATIONS IN WHICH 10 YEARS OF OFFSETS PAY FOR ONE YEAR OF EXTENSION.
00:11:31 THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME TO APPEAR TODAY.
00:11:33 I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR QUESTIONS.
00:11:34 >> THANK YOU, DOCTOR MERRIN.
00:11:36 MR.
00:11:37 BRILL, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHAIRMAN, DOCTOR DOBSON, AND MEMBERS OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.
00:11:44 BEFORE YOU GOING TO DISCUSS THE TAX PROVISIONS, KNOWN AS TAX EXTENDERS.
00:11:49 I BELIEVE TODAY'S HEARING IS ON AN IMPORTANT TOPIC AS THE NUMBER OF AND BUDGETARY MAGNITUDE OF THESE REGULARLY EXPIRING TAX PROVISIONS HAVE BALLOONED IN RECENT YEARS.
00:12:00 SOME OF THESE POLICIES CAN SERVE AN APPROPRIATE GOAL THAT MANY HAS CREPT INTO THE TAX CODE OVER THE YEARS WITH LITTLE EVALUATION.
00:12:09 FOR EXAMPLE, IN 2001, 13 TAX PROVISIONS WERE SET TO EXPIRE THAT YOU WERE THE NEXT YEAR.
00:12:16 A DECADE LATER, 129 TAX PROVISIONS WERE SET TO EXPIRE IN 2011 OR 2012.
00:12:22 THE BUDGETARY CONSEQUENCES EXTENDERS HAVE INCREASED AS WELL.
00:12:27 FOR EXAMPLE, IN SEPTEMBER 2004 CONGRESS ENACTED A ONE YEAR EXTENSION OF 23 TAX EXTENDERS FOR A COST OF $13 BILLION.
00:12:39 IN 2010 COME A TWO-YEAR EXTENSION OF THESE POLICIES COST OVER $55 BILLION.
00:12:44 AND IF CONGRESS WERE TO EXTEND THOSE POLICIES AGAIN THIS YEAR, THE COST WOULD BE EVEN HIGHER.
00:12:53 LET ME SUMMARIZE THREE KEY CONCLUSIONS FROM MY WRITTEN TESTIMONY.
00:12:59 FIRST, NO TAX POLICY SHOULD BE INTENTIONALLY TEMPORARY.
00:13:04 ANY TAX EXTENDERS NEED APPROPRIATE SHOULD BE MADE PERMANENT.
00:13:07 AND THE REST SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXPIRE.
00:13:10 SECOND, EACH OF THE TAX EXTENDERS PROVISIONS MUST BE CONSIDERED INDIVIDUALLY ON ITS OWN MERITS, AND AGAINST A CLEARLY DEFINED POLICY OBJECTIVE.
00:13:21 EACH EXTENDER MUST BE SHOWN TO MEET THAT SUCH AS PROJECTING -- TAX EQUITY.
00:13:31 >> AND THIRD, A SUCCESSFUL EVALUATION OF THE TAX EXTENDERS, KEEPING THE GOOD AND ELIMINATING THE BAD OR INEFFICIENT, MAY SET A USEFUL PRECEDENT FOR THE BIGGER CHALLENGES OF TACKLING TAX EXPENDITURES BROADLY AND ULTIMATELY TAX REFORM.
00:13:50 TO GUIDE THE EVALUATION OF TAX EXTENDERS, POLICYMAKERS I BELIEVE NEED TO ANSWER SIMPLY TO QUESTIONS.
00:14:00 FIRST, INTENT. DOES THE INTENT OF THE PROVISION IMPROVE ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY, INCREASED GROWTH, PROMOTES FAIRNESS OR ACHIEVE SOME OTHER DESIRABLE COAL?
00:14:12 FOR EXAMPLE, THE R&D TAX CREDITS AND TO TO INCREASE THE AGGREGATE LEVEL OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE OUR AND DEGENERATES BENEFITS TO SOCIETY BEYOND THOSE REALIZED BY THE DEPARTMENT.
00:14:23 BUT ONE KEY POINT I WOULD LIKE TO STRESS IS THAT WITH THE TAX EXTENDERS, THAT IS INTENDED TO SUBSIDIZE THE GIVEN ACTIVITY, SPECIAL CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO EVALUATE ITS NET ECONOMIC BENEFIT.
00:14:35 MOST SUBSIDIES WILL INCREASE THE SUBSIDIZED ACTIVITY, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL PRODUCE SUCH A NET BENEFIT OR IMPROVE OVERALL ECONOMIC EFFICIENCY.
00:14:48 IN THE ABSENCE OF EXTERNALITIES, A CREDIT FOR ANY GIVEN ACTIVITY WILL LEAD TO A MISSED ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES.
00:14:54 OR OF THE SUBSIDIZED ACTIVITY OR LESS THAN EVERYTHING ELSE.
00:14:57 AND A PROVISION THAT ENCOURAGES
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